This is the most 'rF2 like' onboard moment I've seen.

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by green serpent, May 4, 2021.

  1. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    I didn't think this warranted a thread in the general discussion so I thought I'd tuck my musings away here in "off-topic". Just nerding out here a bit so don't mind me.

    I find myself in rF2 very often lifting off the throttle mid corner and tightening the line of the car. This effect is very dramatic in rF2, and although it makes perfect logical sense due to weight transfer, I would wonder why I almost never saw it displayed anywhere near as dramatically in real life than in the sim. I know it obviously happens all the time, but it just appears very subtle in real life compared to the exaggerated effect in rF2.

    It could just be because I don't watch a lot of open wheel stuff, but I stumbled upon this video and instantly I thought man that looks like rF2 handling. The whole video is pretty rF2 like, with the very minimal steering lock getting the car around the corner and then leading to oversteer. But specifically this little split second where the car "tucks in" is so rF2 like. I was begining to think it was not a real life thing and it was only rF2 until this. It is exactly at the 3:20 mark.

     
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  2. atomed

    atomed Registered

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    It´s funny because I once asked Sebastian Job in one of his real life Formula Ford onboard videos if he tried the rF2 FF mod and what his opinion was. He told me he felt it was like racing on ice. I found it funny being him an avid iceracing fanboy himself.
     
  3. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    Didn't Michael Schumacher have a quote about how turning relies almost as much on the throttle as the wheel?
     
  4. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    Yes it is oversteery, but if he thinks that thing is like racing on ice, than I should be a pro racing driver because I can push that thing VERY hard! ;)
     
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  5. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    "I tried it quite a while ago but when I did try it the car was simply way too oversteery and loose, almost like it was on ice! The real car is quite loose as it is but it was way exaggerated in rf2." was the exact quote I believe. Okay, maybe I do watch a bit more open wheel stuff than I'm letting on :p
     
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  6. atomed

    atomed Registered

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    Lol it's never too much.
     
  7. likes_simracing

    likes_simracing Registered

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    My contribution to driving with the throttle, barely moving the steering, Skippy at roller-coaster Ahvenisto.
     
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  8. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Well, there you go ;)
     
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  9. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    Man I love these kinds of old school videos, better than all the super slick productions of today I reckon!
     
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  10. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Looks perfectly expected behaviour for such car while being driven in anger. The car is non-downforce, has skinny tires, it should be a way to go with car like that to some extent. To some extent every car could do that, but it is all about parameters - how sensitive is aero, what the amplitude and frequency of grip, obviously the sharper and bigger it goes - the more skill it will require, everything will happen quicker and more dramatically typically with higher performance, not always the case in simulations, most often just a matter of cars physics parameters, most sims these days are capable to replicate fundamental dynamics like that, but when it goes down deep to subtle details rF2 has most juice which isn't always squeezed out.
     
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  11. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Well, I happened to come across that right after watching the thread. I'm a youngster but it brought me back to some older games I played before when I was a kid, probably because it contained some instructional videos of that kind. I felt quite nostalgic at least.
     
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  12. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    Another "rF2 like" onboard. Multiple times where the driver inputs a very small steering angle and because the car is right on the limit, even this very small input results in oversteer. Often he goes through almost the entire corner barely even turning the wheel in the direction of the corner. Also, even though his arms are moving like crazy, I bet from the outside the front tires of that car would look like they are moving smoothly and fluidly along their line, thus he is still pretty fast.

     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
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  13. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    It looks awesome!
     
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  14. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    I wonder which exactly car drives like that to you in rF2 ?

    Have you drove my 911s physics ? Of course not, nobody did lol

    This neutral type of behavior is difficult to calibrate, requires precise aerodynamics and tire modeling as well as everything else. Those classic 911 were special cars. I am so thankful to the history that early cancel culture of these times couldn't touch 911, like they did harm to Corvair. These cars were wonderful to drive at any speed.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2021
  15. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    I wasn't really thinking of a specific car, just the general handling of the lower downforce/historic cars. Basically it is a known thing in rF2 that you can get a car turned around some corners using extrememly minimal steering angle if you get the braking right and the weight of the car just right. A very small "stab" of the wheel in the direction of the corner and you can then hold the wheel straight ahead and still turn around an entire corner.

    That, and the general slidy/drifty nature of the guys driving while still being reasonably fast.

    Is your 911s in the workshop? I drove your mx5 and really enjoyed it.
     
  16. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Absolutely, the cars especially classic cars will all be willing to get into neutral steer state, especially if setup is very neutral and it is driven the right way as you said. But these classic 911s are on another level at it, it can be driven in three ways depending on style and skill: very oversteery, very understeery and completely neutral. It is extremely fun. I can't recall any other car which would have such versatility of handling styles. Most other classic cars would be much less eager to stay neutral for that much even if driven the right way, they are much more eager to lean into oversteer or understeer state sooner. Modern racecars also can be setup and driven in such way to achieve neutral steering state (all slip angles being equal), but they much more eager to grip up quickly, and frequency from sliding to grip is very high, these slides doesn't last that much and angles doesn't get big, but thats so in reality, it isn't so in simulations.

    The 911s I worked on in is in the pack of 1967 endurance cars, not truly 911 graphically, but I did my best to get properly realistic physics. Anyway, I have some updates in preparation, but due to lack of time and lack of motivation I work on it in rare occasions now, and have no idea when it could be about to be shared, no one is asking for it anyway.

    Glad you like MX-5. I wish I could boost up its 3D model... so much I wish I could to update/improve... But it is very complicated and no one cares.
     
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  17. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    Yeah understood, I've been driving the 911 934 IMSA mod and it is as you say. I've never really been into 911's, but I kind of get it now if that's how they actually handle. Very nice transitions between each handling state. Full noise and opposite lock on corner exit is not uncommon.

    Some people do care, but yes, I also find that my taste in the kind of car that l want to drive in sims is not aligned with what most want. I could only imagine what it's like putting a whole lot of effort into a mod and only a small amount of people enjoy it (actually I somewhat know what it's like because of my Youtube videos lol).
     
  18. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    TL;DR I didn't expect to write wall of text, but it just happened naturally. Contemplating why simulations has specific feeling, other than different underlying simulation. I say that there are big problems of people not being critical enough, developers manipulating on that and hardcore fanboys suppressing different ideas, creative and original persons are being quickly repelled away from simracing and it results in one direction of everything. Simracing and whole western world becomes like a chair with two legs on same side, and to keep the balance it has to get twisted and managed by acrobats.



    I have one thing to say which is really fitting the topic, its slightly a rant. I can say one thing about things like "rF2 feel", or any "other sim feel like" stuff. Sims tend to fall tailing after the same stuff that is already made and established. Sometimes so much, that it is almost elligable to cal it coppying and ripping others work. With rare excuses. For example there are several classic cars mods that are not only based on Howston cars (which makes sense, I do the same), but they are based on them so much, that it is hard to find non-common physics parameter. So it is hard not to experience "rF2 feel", or "any other sim feel like", when different cars doesn't only use same or very similar philosophy and perception of what reality is truly like, but they actually use 80%, 90% and more of actuall other cars physics.

    And the most sad part is that no one truly detects that, or even worse - ignores that if if being told about such wrong kind of development manipulation. There are numbers of quite appreciated mods with physics like that, some has more love put into physics, some has almost none, and people still enjoy them a lot if the 3D model is convincing, which is often not a scratch made too. The issue is that we are too agreable, I am not saying that we should be mean and crazy needy and spoiled, but should be critical. I can definitely say that simracers as a whole interestingly really got spoiled in terms of content, 3D stuff, models... but in terms of physics - everybody kind of unspoiled themselves by literally asking for lesser effort physics over the time. What physics developer need to do right now, not to find the most realistic simulation parameters, but most likeable ones, which apparently becoming easier. But I can't imagine how anyone can be happy about that who understands what they are actually doing, unless they get paid for it, I guess. Or if they are kind of people who can spend time with peace of plastic shaped like woman, and feel like it is a real woman, which is in a way simulation too :D "iT iS aLl aBOUt ImMerSiON".

    Speaking of things I did and being desperate... It feels awful, besides many 60s endurance cars, I had huge improvements for many 1954 cars, and I also had an opportunity to get to work on bunch of other cars from fifties too. Several months of work will probably remain as a waste, except it was good practice, interesting work to do and now I have bunch of stuff that I like to myself. The lead people of the projects just simply basically quit, and didn't seem like they cared or liked physics, I have no idea. Some people just want to have something. I also got a lot of people who nearly or actually does hate me for having my own way of thinking, and being critical, unsurprisingly many of those are historic cars guys. This happens like that, because people like that expect every car that is made by modders to be mere clone and copy of some existing car in simulation, they don't appreciate originality and creativity, they don't appreciate anyone who dare to have his own thinking, and thats, my friend, is the prime reason why every simulation has "it's feeling". Different perceptions are just not allowed by key fanboys, developers don't want it too, because obviously how could they not be totally right about some particular detail, right ?

    Of course sims also has their particular feel because of underlying physics, but that is secondary, as most of them today are capable of rather good fundamental physics. It is just way of thinking I support, saying that the way sims are utilized has more impact.
     
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  19. Ef123

    Ef123 Registered

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    This behavior is already well simulated. That's a different porsche in this vid, first old porsche I tried, but the essence is there. Bit of setup tweaking get it to handle even closer.
     
  20. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Any more comments about it ? I have no idea what I am looking at. I mean, who made it, when, any background details about it.

    And indeed it does not look too much off, it looks pretty good actually. I am interested.
     
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