The Right FFB??

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by vegaguy5555, Apr 4, 2017.

  1. vegaguy5555

    vegaguy5555 Registered

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    Hi guys.

    I've spent the last few years in AC and it was great. Great bunch of guys and I had a lot of fun. Then I found (I know what you're thinking, not rF2 but) Jack Spade's wheel FFB presets for Pcars. It was the first time I could feel the weight of the car. Coming over some of those hills on the Nordschleife in VR was pretty intense coming from now, flat AC.

    And then rFactor 2 reminder code for Steam came and blew my mind. Instantly everything I have been trying to fix in AC was working in rF2. Yes, it was a little rough at first but holly hell, what a ride!

    Now...... I thought I had discovered sim racing bliss and was met with a huge crazy discussion in AC that will be remembered for awhile I'm sure.

    I have come to a crossroads. One, our rigs must act very different. Two, our attitudes must be very different from what IS right FFB or both?

    I know settings are huge. The AC Cobra, when I first tried it here was flat and more or less undriveable, which was close to how it feels in AC. With some great advice (thanks everyone) this car is the most amazing sim driving experience hands down.

    What makes this so great???

    PS I am not the only one. My friend drives once in a while and he had the same experience. The Cobra is a hard car to drive and he could not stop driving it either. What is so magical about this? Going back to AC is a joke now. (No disrespect intended to Kunos or anyone there) But that's how my friend and I feel.

    Is there something wrong with my rig or something wrong with us? We are both in our 50's and have been driving since the 70's.
     
  2. David Wright

    David Wright Registered

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    It's déjà vu all over again.
     
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  3. vegaguy5555

    vegaguy5555 Registered

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    I know what you mean but I'm really am stumped. Is it just a frame of mind?
     
  4. vegaguy5555

    vegaguy5555 Registered

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    This isn't about hacking on any sim or group of people but understanding what makes one great and the other less great for any particular person?

    Is it age? Type of car we are used to driving? Maybe the time of year we were born, is a stretch? But there is something different.

    We are a minority here. I came from much superior graphics, if you take VR in consideration, which is huge for me. Forcing me to use triple screens was a big step. Pluss a smaller fan base. There really isn't much reason to be here except for the driving experience and great people, like in AC.

    It might be the type of car we drive in real life? Maybe down force cars are better in AC? I don't know because I like the older cars.

    The newer cars feel simular in AC for me. This is were Pcars doesn't do very good I find.

    I just want to learn something and have a better understanding is all.
     
  5. MarcG

    MarcG Registered

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    ...and yet you call AC a joke right above :rolleyes:
    Your constant need to belittle Kunos is extremely tedious and boring.
    Concentrate on making RF2 the best for yourself and stop the nuisance comparisons every single post please, you'll get more respect that way.
     
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  6. RaceNut

    RaceNut Registered

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    I like that we have Sim's with different character. Granted, it doesn't help with a fragmented community and social voids that currently exist but, if there isn't something here for a person to choose from now, . . .

    I would still like to have a title that looks like Pcars, weather and content with hard-core Sim physics and FFB but, I think that's just unrealistic. I'm fine with splitting my play-time between several titles but, admit that could be problematic from an online-perspective.

    I like the FFB I get from AC, AMS, and rF2 and maybe it has something to do with the hardware or the fact that I've spent countless hours tuning FFB but, I can enjoy driving them all at a high level now. Yes, they are different but, adapting between them is quite easy imo.

    Now take the FFB from Pcars or RR; nope, those just don't do it. Perhaps it's FFB or maybe it's physics issues or both. They just don't satisfy in the same way and I keep checking every once in a while to see if I missed something the time before. Nope, it's still . . . meh . . .
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2017
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  7. vegaguy5555

    vegaguy5555 Registered

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    Yeah, you're right but that's not how I ment it. My point I failed to make was rF2 was a joke the first time I tried it and someone gave me some advice and it got better. The AC Cobra here was a joke and and now its incredible. Even Pcars was a joke for years and now its pretty good to.

    I guess I just can't except AC being a joke and it my fault.

    I'm just trying to understand.
     
  8. vegaguy5555

    vegaguy5555 Registered

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    Did you try the Jack Spade FFB presets? I find Pcars better than AC right now.
     
  9. VAustinElly

    VAustinElly Registered

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    I got the ffb figured out for oval cars the ffb is fine for open wheel cars my only issue with open wheel indy or f1 is I have to turn the wheel way too much to make a sharp turn therefore making me slow. I thought the turning ratio changed automatically depending on the car your driving. Apparently not as f1 and indy set it at 540 when it should be no more than 240 so I haven't enjoyed any road racing in rf2 as of yet.
     
  10. RaceNut

    RaceNut Registered

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    I invested a lot of time tweaking Pcars FFB during development and tried pretty much everything to get the FFB I was used to with other titles but, the closest I got was using SimCommander FFB in place of the game FFB. It was actually very good in certain cars on certain tracks but, in many cases, it lacked refinement and the visceral quality I prefer. It was the best FFB I experienced from Pcars though.

    Once I had experience with the AccuForce, I spent tons of time tuning FFB and explored all extremes but, it also altered my preferences and understanding of FFB and physics over time. The obvious conclusion was that the hardware in use has a lot to do with how we perceive FFB and physics - probably a lot more than we realize but, it becomes much more apparent once exposed to a broader range of steering systems.

    I kind of chuckle now when people using a G27 say that rF2 or iRacing FFB feels like total garbage; I would have agreed with them at one time but, I get why they say that based on the wheel used.

    AC FFB is well suited for those wheels; DD-wheels tend to magnify issues and flaws and if we struggle to get good FFB using them, it generally points to some underlying problem in the FFB algorithm or the base physics. AC's handling can be made more user friendly with a powerful wheel because it's possible to extend or magnify the grip threshold through shear force - not in the physics sense but, in our perception of it through FFB.

    No FFB system has taught me more about what is possible than using SimCommander to tune FFB; the shear range of effects that is possible is so far beyond what can be done with other systems it is amazing although, not very realistic. Still, it demonstrated some really broad effects and provided me a very well-defined target FFB to shoot for.

    The OSW is a more capable system but, the AF software is superior for use with certain titles; Pcars, RR and Dirt Rally are much, much better with SC4 FFB imo but, few AF users seem to explore the depths of FFB that are possible using the system. Titles with solid game FFB don't really need it beyond some subtle enhancement value.

    Sorry, I get carried away talking about this stuff. :p
     
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  11. Fanapryde

    Fanapryde Registered

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    Thing is that the "right" FFB does not exist, at least that is what I believe :D

    Changing a few (or a hell of a lot) sliders can bring you close to what you want to feel, but these settings are not carved in stone. They differ from person to person and they differ according the used hardware.
    In the end you have a certain "feel" that should do the trick and help you control a virtual car around a virtual track.
    If you get the chance to drive a similar car around a race track, you will notice a different feel again...

    pCars FFB is bad ?...... No, it is most certainly NOT. It was just a PITA to get it right, mostly because the abundancy of sliders if which most people (me included) could not figure out what they were supposed to do. After several months I finally succeeded to get a decent FFB.

    Tried AC, and there it was a lot easier to do that, but it is not ideal and I still find it a bit flat. When I race in rF2 (or any of my other sims) for an hour and then switch to AC, it is a little disappointing each time, which is why I find AC's FFB the "worst" of my sims (though I am always using the FFB controller app).

    R3E is another story: more sliders and after a lot of tinkering (hit and miss) I now have very good FFB (which a lot of people with the same wheel are using now too).

    AMS: great FFB after adjusting 1 slider, or adjusting in RealFeel for some cars.

    rF2: great FFB.

    FFB needs to differ from the feel in a real car, because (unless you have a motion rig that also mimics traction loss) all the info has to come from your steering wheel.

    Then there is the fact that all steering wheels (Fanatec, Trustmaster, Logitech, Accuforce, OSW ...) react different on the same FFB settings.
    I'm using all 5 preset slots on my V2 to switch from, in case I feel the need to adjust.

    Even the rig influences this, as I noticed when I switched from my (pretty sturdy) Simetik K2 to the SimLab P1 80/20 recently. FFB in all sims is now (much) more detailed, which came as a (nice) surprise to me.

    No idea if age has something to do with it ? I'm 64...;) Raced 125cc shifter karts, did kart 24hr races, competed in a couple of off-road car endurance races, doing track days (never could afford to race cars on track).
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2017
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  12. Korva7

    Korva7 Registered

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    Steering angle changes automatically, but you can change it your self too.

    I remember that with g27 i prefered AC over rf2, but with thrustmaster TX, rf2 felt better.
     
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  13. Korva7

    Korva7 Registered

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    RealFeel in rf2? In AMS you need to do the Realfeel adjustments.
     
  14. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    First, as @Korva7 said, you can change it yourself, so just do that.

    Second, F1 and Indy don't have 240 rotation, never did, never will. Watch them drive out of the pits. However, 540 is an uncomfortable amount of rotation if you want to get to full lock more than very occasionally, so maybe lower that if your track / setup needs you to do that.
     
  15. Fanapryde

    Fanapryde Registered

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    Oops, something went wrong there. That was what I meant... I'll edit my post there, thanks for noticing.
     
  16. VAustinElly

    VAustinElly Registered

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    I will try that this weekend. I was attempting to race indycar at road America which is one of my home tracks, most turns I am fine but the sharper ones required way to much rotation and or slowing down so much even cars that were 5 seconds behind me catch up in a hurry. That is the one beef I have with this Sim, in iracing I never have to touch my wheel settings after the initial setup whether it's road or oval, but with rf2 I have to whenever I switch from road to oval cars and vice versa. It's not a Sim breaker, but it is annoying.
     
  17. RaceNut

    RaceNut Registered

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    Something I should mention regarding AC FFB and it's effects are obvious when using the AccuForce; having the game FFB-gain setting too high can really affect the results. It's important to set the wheel force settings high and use low gain settings in order to avoid clipping. With the AF, detail is lost during hard cornering (high gain settings) so the FFB just feels flat or numb; reversing the roles of gain vs force can make a big difference.

    With the OSW, I use 100% force output in MMos and a game-FFB gain of about 35% (100% SC4 / 45% gain for the AF). This seems a good practice to use for any Sim-title in order to avoid soft-clipping; doing so while knowing your hardware clipping threshold may improve FFB results and is worth a try imo.
     
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  18. vegaguy5555

    vegaguy5555 Registered

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    Weight in the wheel. The feel of the tires grabbing and tearing loose is the key. The wheel will even have a vibration at different speeds and sometimes idle. That's what I really like about rF2 is the heavy feel of the wheel.

    I am missing this in AC. That is not a complaint or put down just a fact for me in my rig. Just a few months ago I would have said the same about Pcars and did at the time. I don't recall anyone asking me to stop saying anything negative about Pcars.

    I know in a real car I'm always amazed at knowing exactly where the front wheels are pointing unless I'm stopped. I don't always get that in a sim.

    Frame of mind I think can change what can be got from a sim. I think this may be what I am missing in AC. I'm sorry to keep comparing to AC. Its just the one I'm having most difficulty with at this time. Unfortunately it's the hardest sim to say anything negative about. The things I hear about rF2 or any other sim doesn't seem to bother anyone but have something not working right with AC and it's taken as an insult to the whole country of Italy it seems. Makes it kind of hard to trouble shoot their software if you can only say positive things.

    Thanks everyone for your thoughts. It's helping separate the noise from what I need to feel. Heck, I think I can drive better with the sound turned up.

    What a strange and incredible thing driving in a sim can be.
     
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  19. Korva7

    Korva7 Registered

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    have you / can you adjust ffb damping in ac?
     
  20. vegaguy5555

    vegaguy5555 Registered

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    Hey, thanks for that. Will give it a try. I think clipping is the problem with AC. No information is a good way to explain how AC feels for me right now.

    I really want to say great things about AC again. Really!
     

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