The reason we need the new tire improvements in GT cars

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Nieubermesch, Aug 1, 2021.

  1. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    I think developers are right for not listening to users ASAP. Let me explain. I have been developing mods myself too, including physics. I do it as honestly as I can, trying to do it as realistic as I can, do you think after months of work will I immediately agree to do changes based on some feedback from guys who spent less than ten minutes with what I have been doing for several months ? No !!! When I get feedback, it usually leads to me arguing why I did what I did. If I was wrong it usually takes from hours to months to honestly agree with criticism. Sometimes I never become fully sure. What it tells about me ? It tells that I am super honest, wonderful, perfect human being :D Alright, it just tells that I am honest, and did what I believe myself.

    What instant reaction to people feedback tells about some developer ? What does it mean if developer who worked on simulation for months of years, does a U-turn in physics as soon as first bunch of unhappy people complaints about something ? It tells that they either didn't have any clue themselves to begin with, or they just rush to adjust to people likes ASAP. It doesn't speak as honesty to me. Unless an issue is so glaring, and so obvious and undeniable, I see no reason why a dev should quickly shift to some other way, just because some random people told them to do it.

    So to conclude, I think developers definitely listen, even iRacing devs. And I think it is fine that they don't take actions ASAP, but rather waits for sufficient certainty level. Just hopefully doesn't abandon the project. Not only that, it is much more complex for them, there are teams of developers, there is management, and they still must remain appealing to their userbase and hopefully grow it while also remaining stable and having everything in as much neat order as possible, otherwise it would be just chaos. Everything is important.
     
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  2. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    The complexity of sim racing is what makes it interesting from my perspective, otherwise we wouldn't have this niche but all racing games driving like NFS or flying games playing like Hawx. You basicly have one common task - aka simmulating a car - but you have a multitude of different approaches and models for it. In that sense the first step is to realize that we are allways talking about models, because that way you get away from the "is it realistic?"-paradigm. The only question that is interesting is how good the approximation is.

    In the case of rF2 it's in some cases so complex that it's hard to define where a specific issue really is. Even something like the material of the rim is taken into consideration. So when I read that tires are all wrong and that the physics are broken I can do nothing more but shake my head. If we go that far we could say that all racing sims available are broken. But it is important to isolate issues, as Lazza suggested. Funny example: everyone complains how driving with lowest possible preassures isn't realistic, because their favorite sim XYZ doesn't do it like that. Then you see tyres failing in F1 and people like Guenther Steiner telling on TV how going with lowest tires preassures is the way to go. But the issue doesn't stop here. If rF2 was "realistic" we could underinflate tyres, they would collapse and race directors/admins/devs would have to give minimum tire pressures to avoid this.

    If we extend that thought it's also pretty obvious why people would drive the way they drive and get away with it. There is no damage simulated so while going over curbs, gravel or - something that would be a dream and make safety cars more valuable in sim racing - going over debri. Another very important factor is the lack of proper track and ambient temps. The default track temp is at 25-ish degree, wich is relatively cold. In European midsummer (so racing season) we get into the 40-50 degree range easily wich makes the proper compound and choice of preassure a different challenge and wear might be alot higher with those temps. There are so many factors involved that it's easy to see how one would get carried away. So in that sense, it might be well worth to take a deep breath and not only embrace how far we have come in sim racing - it's not frsutrating it's amazing - but also double check what we really need.

    So to come back to your topic and "question": do we really need new tire improvements for GT cars? Or might it be better to tackle global factors like track temps that affect every car before we go back to the drawing board for a few of them?
     
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  3. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @hitm4k3r what's that? Punctures caused by debris? You mean like in rFactor (1)? :p
     
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  4. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    If I was tasked to do that I would be an happy man and probably wouldn't be complaining about RF2 shortcomings here :D:D:D.

    Driving my street car a bit on the edge sometimes I get the excitement of feeling like I could be playing with my luck to how sketchy things feeling, but it's also a assisted steering, but I can feel the car sort of "float" a bit in a certain turn I can test this and not with a lot of speed. I've also drove it quite fast for what the car is on a highway and felt the same and the wind effects sometimes are pretty scary...

    It's a separate thing, but I think the tire skidding sound of some S397 also don't help to feel the urgency of a slide. In real life and some other mods it could just be the sound, but that whine really puts you on the edge, while with GT3 or GTE they feel like just scrubbing around a bit...
     
  5. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Don't get me wrong, I think the complexity and advancement of simulations is exciting, but because we are dealing with simulations it's still frustrating we might have some strange unrealistic behaviors because, well, it's not so easy to have the Sim really have all the variables of real life. Although for me some things in RF2 are not implemented yet because of what seems to me misguided attention - or excessive - to other aspects also important. I would like, like you say, to see some of those implementations, mostly the track temperatures being dynamic. This is such an odd absence for a sim like RF2...

    I will buy every DLC that might come - unless it doesn't really interest me - if they start really showing the commitement to advance features of physics. I feel I might lose a bit of the love and excitement for RF2 and it's future being a supporter of it if they continue to neglect and take too long with some things. It's sad though, it's the one with the biggest potential for me. S397 are not ISI, so I am afraid some of the other companies around or new ones might come with a software that can blow some of the best features of RF2 out of the water and I wished they leveled up their physic engine before that happens, as it might be too late to catch the train by then..
     
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  6. RaceNut

    RaceNut Registered

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    Tire sounds are a big part of grip-loss detection but, slicks are said to produce more scrub sound than squeal. I think most of us can relate better to tire-squeal sounds and they produce a much wider range of intensity.
     
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  7. J7166

    J7166 Registered

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    This video perfectly illustrates why in every other sim I'm about .5 to 1 second off the alien level drivers.....in rf2 that delta is 2-3 seconds. Other sims have weird quirks too, but I don't think any of them have the visual shock value that rf2 has.
     
  8. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    Video basically summed up "In real life you can slide the car a lot and get away with it, it can also be quick, tires can be slipped a lot and be controllable." Do I feel that rF2 is too slidy, probably, but lets not forget that IRL if you have phenominal car control, sliding can be very very fast. Maybe it is too easy to slide in rF2 but sliding dosn't automatically equal being slower. I think it is also a result of rF2 having such good connection with the car that you can drive it in such a way. To me the car looks a bit NQR with the way it moves, like the tires are too springy and soft, but as far as controlling the car over the limit, I think an RL driver with very good car control and the right setup could drive similar to Henri, and it'd be fast as hell. They'd need to be brave though!

     
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  9. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    It has nothing to do with rF2, it's what physics those cars in rF2 has.

    And definitely some other sims that are more mediocore, design their physics in such way, that peoples of all skills range paces would be squeezed in smaller time gap.

    And the driving style of Henri is just............. bold. I don't think he should get away with it for more than two turns. But I'll wait seeing how he will deal with latest cars with improved tire parameters. I bet we will see a lot more strict style from him, or will we ? Henri is on the spot light :D
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2021
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  10. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Like I said, some of the very good laps that are looking realisticaly on the edge with some sliding is one thing, but some of the sliding in RF2 is not quite in the same style that we see in RL with some cars. It could be down only to fear factor and what not, but I don't think so and some instances are a bit too easy to get way with. It's all good factors that contribute to getting away with it though.

    I prefer RF2 then what IRacing seemingly offers in terms of grip fall off, thats for sure.
     
  11. doddynco

    doddynco Registered

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    I suspect fast sliding the car like you see in these 'RF2 physics broken' vids would be much more difficult with a 1:1 FFB force/acceleration. In a real race car you can't just hold the steering wheel still, exactly where you want it to be as the tyres jerk around under the bumps.
     
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  12. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    That's true. It's a big component of it. I went from a T300 to a TS XW and with maximal range of forces in both of them I felt a different capability to catch cars in certain situations. Some were made easier as it was faster corrected, but the other side of the coin is that it can get snappy pretty fast. I can only imagine a 1:1 response. Probably the same thing will happen in it's own dimension.
     
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  13. doddynco

    doddynco Registered

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    It's surprising what you can and can't do with properly scaled FFB and the two characteristics you state I think are exactly right. Just look at the onboard footage from the Indycar. Even a 30nm DD doesn't move like that - it's too slow to accelerate up to peak force (or, it has too much inertia to be so instant at changing position - this is not torque, it's just accelerating far quicker that the driver can react to compensate for the change in torque).

    I mean, and big DD wheel is 100% a step in the right direction towards realism. Within the very niche world of DD wheel performance, the acceleration capabilities of the motor is one of the main factors which makes them feel 'better' than another DD wheel.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2021
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  14. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    I think you are expecting a bit too much here. They are a small team and have had to set priorities. When they took over, physics was the strong suit, graphics the bad one, just like the online pick up racing state of things. Graphics have caught up big time now, but the CS still has a long way to go, just like the UI. But it does show with the new approach/data they use for the current tyre model (god forbid calling it the new TM) that resources are slowly shifting a bit.

    To come to your point, it is really hard to talk about such a complicated matter, with lots of people that think they know it better, when you are not working on that. It would be a waste of time (lots of it considering the length of the posts and threads about this).

    This could be different if they were working a lot on physics at that time, just like that happened with the CS. They are very responsive about that, definitely Jimmi, who works a lot with that system. He talks about how stuff works, what is coming, what is broken, when they are fixing it etc.

    I am not sure why you are bothered about them talking about pizza in their break once a month though. It's a fun sign that they are alive and well, without them getting tons of "ackchyually meme" responses.
     
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  15. Sim_Player

    Sim_Player Registered

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    I heard many times that graphics team, ui team physics are all different people...so all of this development should be done side by side.
    my guess would be physics resources are "stuck" at MG titles.
    slowly slowly they are getting free then we will see m4 tyre like advancement in all other aspects (tyres,aero,suspension,hybrid etc )
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2021
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  16. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    I chime in just to say that among the other factors, what allow simplayer to more constantly nail the limit (compared to R/L) is that computer simulation does not allow for fuzziness , a computer calculation, given the same initial numbers will always yield the same result. In R/L when you perform even the simplest laboratory experiment, under the most controlled condition, you need to pool data and do averages, and exclude odd results from the pool. In practical term this mean that the simdriver can more realiably predict (for example) how much grip his front left tire will be able to deliver in the next simulation frame, and plan his driving accordingly. In real life, you can make the same turn a hundred of times, but it still can happen that for some reason the result is never exactly the same, and if you are too much on the verge, a single little odd event can cascade in a unexpected way.
    This is what I think, if programmer could be able to add a little bit of uncertainty in their calculations, thing will seem much more realistic.. how much? Who knows.
     
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  17. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Yes steering forces being up to different scale can make huge difference. But most of the time steering would not be that much impossibly heavy. Modern race cars doesn't have steering too savage, at least that is what I heard about GT3. I know a guy who races Lamborghini Huracan ST, I could ask him.

    I suppose engineers would try to make car in such way that too heavy steering wouldn't prohibit evasive actions. It would be weird if something that is a lot more complex like tire would be capable of doing more, and heavy steering would bottle neck the performance. I know group C race cars were notorious with heavy steering, with all that downforce.

    The thing with oversteer (oversteer is usually main concern for us), steering goes lighter and very light for a moment before rear end steps out. There are two ways to deal with oversteer. First, let steering self align itself and just guide it slightly. Second, as decrease of self aligning torque is felt through the steering be faster than steering and proactively all by yourself turn into a slide. That is why it could be good idea not to hold squeezed steering rim strongly, because you can loose some sensitivity to torque changes. Phase of holding a slide after having turned into it is very interesting, sometimes it could be best not to hold at all, and sometimes necessary to do it for longer. Phase of returning from oversteer is kind of first phase in reverse, steering could align itself back, but it could be better or often necessary for a driver to straighten steering all by himself. During oversteering steering is heaviest in the hold phase if the car is still overturning, and also in returning phase if trying to straighten out front before rear end realigns. In AC there is this strong resistance when realigning cars back from oversteer, I am not sure if that is truly correct in most times, it is not that hard in rF2 to begin with, but in rF2 steering forces are less proactive, and instead requires more initiative from drivers to take actions.

    And there I'd like to mention those Indy drivers. Their steering in certain circumstances probably could exceed speed and torque of even most serious DD wheels around. But I doubt that they does most of the time. I think it is not that obvious by looking at that footage to tell if it is all steering forces moving the wheels so fast, or if that is drivers being pro and steering into a slides BEFORE cars steering would do it itself. Returning steering straight from slides BEFORE cars steering would do it itself. But it is hard to tell in most examples, however I tend to think that drivers are the ones that are taking initiative in at least half of those examples, rather than just holding hands on steering wheel and doing minimal guiding with slight use of power of their arms and with pedals modulation. The fast steering there is more drivers steering themselves, because it is that fast they need to keep up with what cars are doing in those edgy moments.

    So I think that the drivers has enough capability to control cars in those conditions with proper precision, maybe even could do it with single hand on steering wheel, but I also suppose if they were forcing steering too much in weird moments and weird ways, steering forces could perhaps be too intense to interfere and expect sufficient precision of control.
     
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  18. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Yeah, took me probably 3 years to switch from my first DFGT to the T300 and then more 3 years to switch to the TS XW. I think this time my new upgrade will take less time, but I also need to think about how to go with a rig that will shake and make much more noise if not propperly executed. I am fairly well built so I really like to have strong FFB wich some might prefer to have it lighter because they aren't. Even if I wasn't I think I would start going to the gym to handle the real forces :D:D:D.
     
  19. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    Programming and 3D work are very different. They are very hard to combine and often are done by different people. But in programming there are things that are much more overlap able. Someone who can program physics, usually are also capable of programming other things around it. Stefano is a very good example of this, and LFS even is. I understand why people think that though, I only found this out myself when I started watching Stefano's programming streams and then also looked at how many people worked on LFS for example.
     
  20. Sim_Player

    Sim_Player Registered

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    Is that so, then i say completely halt graphics process and go full send on physics :)
    unleash the programmers (they must be getting bored working on graphics.)

    Graphics are good enough now....also it is not like they can go full toe to toe with UE or madness engine. (still rf2 holds quite well IMO ).
    make rf2 physics tech demo as it was used to be known back in time, now it is more of a graphics tech demo.
     
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