The reason we need the new tire improvements in GT cars

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Nieubermesch, Aug 1, 2021.

  1. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Don't know what words I've put in your mouth at all... I've seen that argument that this is not the fastest way possible or that's yet to be proven, when if you go on youtube you will find no lap faster by driving any other way then abusing slip angles and lowering Rear wing to insane values. GT3 has actually been improved to be fair, so it's not the same issue. GTE cars are another topic, as they still haven't received the deserved attention. All GT3 cars I've tested have a much bigger sensitivity to aero balance (or at least at crazy throws of the car are punished muh more then they were).
     
  2. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Your entire post was putting words in my mouth. Show me where I said the tyres are fine. Don't limit yourself to this thread. Should be easy enough for you.

    As for the 2s - I said 2s/min. If you want to discuss physics and don't know what that means, or can't take the time to read it properly, you're going to have a tough time of it.

    On laptimes: I've seen a couple of him qualifying top 5, and 1 of him qualifying first by a small margin. Nothing that screams "this way is faster."

    On improvements: if I do 10000 laps driving properly, and someone goes faster while sliding, that doesn't mean it's faster. Even if I do that sliding lap myself. That's a logic error, because it assumes I was at the very limit. Plenty of people think they're at the limit, and then question how an alien goes a second faster (driving normally), and usually blame setup or even cheating.
     
  3. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    If you really think about it I didn't really put words in your mouth. You didn't mention the tires specifically, but implicitly by your comment about how much faster you can drive in this certain way not being yet proven, it also implicitly sounds like you are contesting that the problems with the tires are such that this way of driving is either way too fast and viable, or the actual faster way around a track. That's why I raised the issue. By the way, being able to be fast/faster this way is the tip of the Iceberg when it comes to the issues I have with the tires. I care more about the huge slip angles they seem to mantain and I find myself into even if I try to drive it the way it seems to be more realistic (not only to me and also the way the new slick tire of the M4 operates). If you decided to comment on this topic and it's about tires, why do you expect such a phrase like that is not going to raise doubts about the way you perceive the issues with the tires?

    Well, 2s/min is still not it, as I said 5 seconds faster... I misread it though, and I am sorry about that.

    I guess I'll have to watch yet another video, but what I've watched last time was two or three other guys driving basically the same way and being very close to each other and on the top positions.

    I agree. It's a logical error to assume that it's faster that way. The problem with taking it to the extremes and what's logically possible, is that then you will never be sure what's faster at all... You will never know if the propper driving can be made even faster then it is if it surpasses the "sliding" driving, or vice versa... If most of fastest drivers are driving like this to achieve the best results, I would infer that this is the most viable way of being the fastest in a certain car, as I am sure they probably exhaust a lot of the possibilities when it come to setups and driving styles. If it's a known setup "hack" to lower rear wing to crazy low values and you need to compensate for that by messing with ARBs and what not and the tires are forgiving enough to let it happen and still be fast, this probably means it will be the fastest way - lower drag, good ammount of speed even when car is sliding a far bit with insignificant disruption of momentum and also huge slip angles that can be mantained while the rear tires scrub around... One thing is seeing a good lap done aggressively and using most of the track even with some moments of very brief sliding, another thing is what can be seen in some of the hotlaps by Henri. It becomes much more then a question of the perceived limits one think the car has to each of us and simply having a sort of shortcut to be faster in a way that simply seems too far fetched to be viable - only when things aren't quite right.
     
  4. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    By the way, I don't really hate the tires and I can live with the exploits or whatever you want to call it, but I do prefer the new tire improvements seen in recent content. It's not much more then that. I don't expect them to be the same, but that they apply better what they've learned and find a way to punish a certain driving style wich in reality is the most probable to not be practicable at all and also fix some of the more subtle things that come before those more obvious behaviors - slip angles, grip dropoff, how much sensitive they are to loads, etc...
     
  5. Bill Worrel

    Bill Worrel Registered

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  6. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Now thats a lap! Pretty good! I'll eat my words when it comes to being pretty fast, agressive but not unrealistically slidy! It doesn't solve the problem in itself, but I finally saw a lap faster doing a pretty good job attacking the time. Some sections would be trickier with the new tire "model" for sure, but this is pretty far from Henri and quite close to an all out lap done in real life. Thanks.
     
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  7. Kahel

    Kahel Registered

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    It's a thing: the 'sliding'... this comment alone won't change your mind, which is a good thing...

    But anyone with experience in the competitive scene... knows.
    Even on the level between div2 and 3 of the GT challenge 'we' all know about it.
    And it's even more a thing on div1... Michi hoyer or Risto Kappet, to name a few, mentione it at least once on every stream they do.

    No need to look that hard to find out... doesn't mean this issue doesn't deserve some proper investigation, tough.
    And, there is also the possibilty that we might all be in some kind of 'mass delusion'...on that subject, wouldn't be the first time.

    To conclude on a positive note... the lastest cars S397 release like the DTM and the formula pro are a lot less subject to this issue... at a first glance at least.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2021
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  8. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    It's a thing. I didn't say it isn't. Is it actually faster? That's all I commented on. I'm not disagreeing with everything being said, I'm not questioning anyone's religion or which pants leg they like to put on first.

    My comment was very focused. Please respond in kind.
     
  9. pilAUTO

    pilAUTO Registered

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    It would be really fantastic if, in the coming weeks or months :

    1) The recent improvement in the tire model really allowed a leap forward in terms of realism....

    But above all.....

    2) So quickly and in a manner Exhaustively the 55 S397 cars were gradually in say 2 years maximum updated with this improved tire model.
    *And damn it, if they took the opportunity to improve sounds and graphics (PBR) during the same occasion, it would be a dream.

    Yeah I think it's just a dream, isn't it? !!!!
     
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  10. Sim_Player

    Sim_Player Registered

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    @ marcel offermans Did say that these new tyre will eventually be end up on other official content.
    I personally do think GT cars will receive them first,given their higher popularity.
    but you also need to know that that gt cars also has aero physics issues, gte is even stranger in aero behaviour compared to gt3s.
    So IMO they are probably fixing both aero and tyres at same time ....hence the delay.
    I hope they fix aero too, otherwise cars will be even worse than they are now.
     
  11. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    A lot less. I like that you end your post with a doubt - "at a first glance at least". I suppose it would take a ton more effort to pull out crappy side of physics with the tires that are built in latest way. But in hands of Alien it probably still would get to this ridiculous zone by some margin with some exceptional setup that puts lots of grip balance towards rear and with a single lap of hard hard hard tire abusing. I think I already saw one video of some of the top fast guys of rF2 doing few really abusive things with Formula Pro at Monaco and ending up with great laptime.

    Just looked it up:


    I'll begin with conclusions as sort of TL;DR, as no way most people read anyway: I think this is as much abuse that we will see of this new way of tire build, at least with Formula Pro. And in my opinion this is well within window of realism, at least in my view. But "at first glance at least".

    I'd like to comment on it, hopefully as compact as possible:
    Turn names and map for better guidance:[​IMG]
    1. Sainte Devote. Realistic snap oversteer from understeer.
    2. Massenet. Interestingly smooth return from long understeer, but it looked like it was just about to snap into oversteer, which I'd expect. Probably on the verge of realism.
    3. Casino. Medium-short burst of rather big understeer again, but then again led to some oversteer on the exiting. Probably realistic.
    4. Mirabeau Haute. I guess realistic rear axle lock up due to insane fast downshift while also downhill and into slow speed turn. And as soon as car is set immediately turned into understeer.
    5. Grand Hotel Hairpin. Super nervous entering with wheelspin. Downshift and some rear axle lock again. No understeering this time, but instead some rally worthy oversteer slide through whole hairpin, keeping some throttle on to avoid tank slapper and loosing momentum. Did look realistic IMO, just definitely not what you'd expect to see from F1 kind of car, probably not even in early 90s when Alessi and Berger drove their Ferraris like madman there. It might have been very difficult to keep the car clean like that there for Nuno, I can count he did about 7-9 corrections through that turn, and at the end as he was still oversteering he just was perfectly set into turn 7, so he never needed to straighten out the car.
    6. Mirabeau Bas. Understeer theme again ,but ascan be seed there is a rush to straighten out front wheels precisely and wasn't absolutely smooth, sign of a realistic effort IMO
    7. Porter. Same as before understeering, and nice realistic fishing out rear at the exit.
    8. Nouvelle Chicane. Was awesome, tried understeering at first as it seems to be how car is setup and how driving style is, but it wasn't all that smooth and I like how nervous the exit was.
    9. Tabac. Super quick and aggressive understeer, and somehow didn't kiss the barriers or just barely touched them.
    10. The rest of the lap looked super realistic to me, very exciting. Had huge understeer moment at La Rascasse, managed just to scrub off enough speed not to hit the barriers by understeering, which otherwise would have been a reason of hitting them.
     
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  12. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Off-topic, but:

    Sometimes I'm tempted to stop reading your posts just because you say stuff like this. Stop being so judgmental.
     
  13. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    What are issues with GT cars aero now ? I don't drive them, not familiar. I think the last time I drove them was after they tweaked aero and made them more yaw sensitive. Do you refer to that ? Maybe you think they has overdone it a bit towards difficult side ? It makes sense if with new tire development it would appear that current GT cars with might be too sensitive aerodynamically because now tires would also be more sensitive. But I am unsure since I almost don't use GT cars, just suspect it is that what you mean. I think it is absolutely probably what is going on, they might be rebalancing aero vs tires.

    @Lazza I agree, that was stupid line from me. Just to be clear I don't judge other people with it. I don't demand others to read me. I just probably waste others time, nevermind good or bad quality of my posts. I have long ago said to myself, that I am ok if no one is going to read what I say, the benefit of contemplating while composing posts is almost enough to me.
     
  14. Sim_Player

    Sim_Player Registered

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    LONG POST WARNING :D
    @mantasisg I will try to get it right, to put it simply the front wing(or splitter) has extreme gain for every millimetre it drops. Which gets this car in some weird positive feedback loop.
    now when you put less rear wings (lower settings) you actually gain more downforce at front than you lose at rear.
    further more I got pointed out more by guys who know it better and have real life experience (i don't wanna take names). you can even see quite big spike in aero even during gearshift.
    New problem (which is core physics lacking tbh so applies to all aero cars). I haven't yet got "official" confirmation BUT looking at telemetry and HDV evidence is pretty clear IMO.
    The problem is that there is basically no aero map for body roll angle, this I recently discovered.
    so aero behaviour is purely based on front and rear ride height average with "indirect " effect of roll.
    from my current findings , IRL you should lose actual df with every degree of body roll. (how much ? i don't have numbers because it varies from car to car,my guess would be around 2-3% atleast, this is loss of Coefficient of lift)
    there is more to the relation to body roll to aero properties (like CoP migration) which also needs to be implemented in core physics itself.
    apart from these 2 effects on aero for body roll there will be more definitely.... which i'm not aware of , but hoping devs will add those properly.
    Implementing this properly will get rid of "detached " ARB FTW exploits,as there will be consequences now (aero wise)

    Edit: 3rd effect is stalling of underbody aero due to excessive body roll BUT this probably wouldn't be as "regular " occurrence as the above 2 while driving.(unless you are running super soft and minimum ride height etc)

    My current idea is to atleast get devs to create a "simple " new parameter in HDV that produces a linear graph (IRL it is most probably not linear but this should be better than nothing ).
    This new parameter will remove x% of CL for y degrees of roll , this "simple " parameter will definitely help for time being.

    To further point out how serious this is because of this lack of aero map , you basically getting penalised for maintaining flat aero platform....because not only you loosing both mechanical grip at front and especially at rear PLUS you are loosing aero grip at rear in all the cars i tested....while shifting DF forward...yea it is VERY problematic. this is on skid pad ...imagine the losses on normal circuit with more surfaces irregularities.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2021
  15. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    I don't know how much true all that is, but sounds like you know what you talk about. By the way, when you talk about body roll, do you always mean body roll ? Or are you sometimes talking about pitch ?
     
  16. Sim_Player

    Sim_Player Registered

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    I'm too not aware of all the aerodynamic effects, but things i talked about are i'm 99% sure of being true.
    And yes i'm talking about pure body roll..no pitch, squat etc.

    P.S : this is image of formula student car i found , might help to clarify what Effect i'm talking about. (sorry about low quality)
    IMG_0075.jpg
     
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  17. AlexHeuskat

    AlexHeuskat Registered

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  18. GTClub_wajdi

    GTClub_wajdi Registered

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    The question here, are drivers use this driving style in real life?! I think there tyers will be destroyed in 2 laps .
     
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  19. AlexHeuskat

    AlexHeuskat Registered

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    off topic too :
    is it you ?
    lazza.jpg
     
  20. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    lol

    No. Not sure where you're from, but certainly in Australia and I believe in the UK, many 'arry/'ary names get 'azza' as a nickname. Gary becomes Gazza, Barry=Bazzer, etc etc.

    It would also be a little strange for me to have such a new profile. I don't exactly hide on this one :D
     

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