Okay, rFactor2 general forum is not maybe the right place for this discussion but it has most readers so I decided to exploit that fact. I want to express some views I have about racing simulators, or driving simulators in general. I am not trying to predict future, but more like thinking aloud where these simulators should or could evolve into. Current situation is that we are in pretty good technical stand, graphics can be very nice and physics also pretty believable. As much it can when the reality still is that you are sitting in your home. The thing is that simulators do not tend to think outside the box. I hate that phrase, but its pretty imminent in this scene. Basically the genre has not evolved anywhere in 25-30 years. Except that we can simulate driving reality far more better than in 1990. That is the key word, simulate. But simulation is basically just a starting point for a full out virtual/gaming experience. It is the basis and foundation where the actual thing - whatever it is - is built on. I think we are in state where this genre of virtual realities should take the next step. When first flying simulators arrived they where the only "games" that tried to represented real worlds on home computers. Other games from that era, such as E.T., had nothing to do with anything even remotely real. Simulators had interesting appeal to them because of this. But what has happened today, is that these *other* games have reached simulator "visual reality" and well passed it. It is only matter of time when GTA-a-like game has driving physics comparable to rF1 for instance. (Might be that it could be already done, but developers/publishers don't want to. But that is totally another issue). But that game is not about driving cars, it is about... almost everything. Simulators have basically dig themselves into a hole, while world around them evolves. My point is not that there should be other GTA games to be made, but point is that simulators need to come up with new actual gaming layers and concepts. There will be a someone someday that makes a game, that is basically a simulator, but is a real game. Most of all, an intriguing virtual reality which will not compete against other games but also against other simulators. We are not very far away from that. Upcoming DayZ standalone is already somewhat taken this path, while it is essentially a simulator, it is also interesting game that interacts with its environment and other players creating meaningful player stories. No, it won't have realistic driving physics, but it could have. Racing simulator. It is something that simulates event of a race. It's vehicles and the concept of a race. How most (all?) simulators approach this is that they concentrate purely to on track events. At the same time they neglect everything that happens outside the track which basically makes the race even a possibility to start with. I feel that true racing simulator would be game where you actually live through the whole concept of racing world. Sure the key event is the race, and giving the controller inputs to your virtual vehicle. But why should it end there? Take a look for basic F1 race weekend, imagine how far you could take it when you would be the actual character, driver, in that environment interacting with everything around you. I think there is serious need for simulator developers to start thinking about concepts of gaming in general. Plain driving can take you only... that far. Not saying there is anything wrong with it, but time will come where there is no border between games and simulators. Then those products that lack the aspects of interesting gaming, will fade. Time for compromises are starting to be over. Ultima 1, originally released 32 years ago. Had also space flight simulator in it.
My personal point of view ... the peculiarity of sim racing is the competition. You can run ten times the same race, and every time it will be different. As result, a racing sim can be played for years never being boring or repetitive. This makes the racing sim market nichle different compared to the "average game" and its users are sometime not "gamers". For istance, rF and rF2 are the only two "games" i have installed in my PC and to me sim racing is not "gaming" but an hobby, or a virtual sport when i race in a closed environment as a league. So, honestly i am not interested at all in "optional features" related to the "life of a professional driver" (career etc), but i would be interested, for instance, in a "link between leagues" going in the direction to manage a sim racing career. In other words, i think there is room for a sort of "enlarged game", but managed by humans. The sim by itself has only to be versatile, allowing a wide range of racing series, with appropriate rules and a vaste and realistic environment. Devs specialized in the physics engine are pretty few: full comprension of real world physics is a must, as well as full comprension of mechanical engeneering. Also, what we called a "sim" in the 90', today might be only a bad arcade, ie following the advance of hardware technology devs can push toward a more realistic simulation. (eg modern tire models, talking of an important feature as tires, are very hard to implement requiring years of coding and, as counterpart, more "PC horsepower"). This means that the evolution of the physics in a racing sim will stop only when will stop the evolution of PC hardware and, in my opinion, the run of racing sims has to be concentrated on such matter, ie taking advantage of the hardware tech in order to improve the depth of the physics. Last, the most of the dev teams are very small and that makes "dangerous", in terms of pure simulation, to invest coding time for optional features. I do not pretend to voice the opinion of the majority of the users, just saying my thought on the matter.
Good point and an interesting discussion, although it probably will get a little too academic at some point. Since Johannes had the really big picture mentioned i would already be very satisfied if a couple of little things would be added. Of course a driving sim is all about physics and decent representation of cars on a road/track through visuals, sound and forces. But there are certain things probably considered gimmicks by the extreme hardcore racers which may benefit racing simulators and especially rF2: - a realistic pitcrew would be a big plus. Show them changing wheels or reparing the car or even shake their head when nothing can be done anymore. Big plus for immersion from my point of view. - some more movement and animation around the track, in the crowd and around the pitlane would be nice. Even if it takes a toll on current hardware, implement the feature and make it selectable. Look at rF1 now: We can easily double the animations etc. and still get 100 fps with uptodate hardware. But the options are just not there.... These are just two examples to make it more like a "live" event. When you are driving a car in a race on the edge you probably don't notice this at all, but when you look at a replay or drive slowly through the pits it will certainly put an additional smile on my face....
I've also always had the feeling that the non-sim games will slowly get more simmish and simmish with increased hardware hp and such, I agree on that. However I disagree that the current sims are good enough physics wise, physics are sooooo deep and complex, for example the f1 teams' sims have bad graphics and have 25 computers all hooked up to eachother powering one physics engine, and they are still all always trying to improve their sims, not only that but us humans don't even fully understand real life physics yet, let alone simulating them in computers (and slow computers at that)
It is sure thing that physics side will evolve as it has been to this date. It is like splitting a rock. Same thing with graphics too. My main view is that we are getting more and more into situation where we don't have to make compromises anymore, where we don't have to choose between game and simulation. Good example is ISI's own gMotor engine, I don't know all the details for sure but you can license it and build your own software out of it. Basically nothing stops you to build a whatever game that has rFactor-like driving physics implemented into it. (I believe my colleague made inquiries about the price and for indie developers that was too much ) If such game/simulator is made, it doesn't mean that we have to take out the possibility to just play it as a pure simulator. The final choice of how it is meant to be played, has to be in hands of player.
Hi everyone! I saw this thread here and its really interessting. I am a "gamer" and "simfan" now for 25 years and i just wanna post my 2 cents here. I played games and sims on almost every platform and i have to say that its a bit sad how far everything comes now. Take the games first. 20 years ago i went into a store and there was a big wall with about 200 games. your chance to pick a less quality game or a game that really sucks was really tiny. Almost every game out there was good in its way, it had a really good Story, diffrent difficulty levels and every game was replayable. Today u get 4x or even 5x of the games but there are only 5 diamonds a year, which are really good games. For me its like the whole B-movie industry from the 80s and 90s are now making games. Iam not satisfied anymore with most of the games outthere, ill play them for about 2 or 3 hours just to say "yeah graphics look stunning but iam not able to do things i was able to do 2 or 3 titles before" and the difficulty levels are just a joke. Some games in the 80s were more complex than most games today. And for me the gaming industry is still like Hollywood, payin millions for stunning effects and good graphics, but lack in the storytelling part, like the clash of the titans remake. Today i really love to play simulators because there is a learning curve for me, its no that play 3 hours and u know everything about the game. For me its driving hundreds of laps and smiling if i do an online race and can be competitive in the mid field without wreckin the car. And Sims clearly have evolved, but its a niche now. In the late 80s and mid 90s there were plenty of diffrent racing- and flightsimulators out, but today u can count those companies on one hand. I like it if a Game becomes a Sim and gets more complex, but u have to take your time to get used to it. And people today are not really interessted in reading manuals or tutorials. They all just wanna jump in and get all the action even if they can't control it. So the gaming industry makes the whole game far easier to play for everyone. And thats nothing where a Sim should focus on primarly. Its good to have all those Aids u can use as a newcomer, because u still know u're driving a real car in a simulated enviroment as closest to the reality as possible. But the sim itself should really focus on the simulation of its product. I don't need F16 falcon physics in Rfactor if i cant drive it. And its really helpful for a Sim/Game if the devs decide to release an Editor or Devmod to develop mods to expand their product. Most sims today have a huge fanbase because of the modders! And still its up to YOU, the tools are there u can try for your own. Just my 2 cents!
Racing simulator as a racing simulator. Virtual racing used as it would be a racing hobby or a sport, is the best kind. Sims racing/driving is a totally different genre (Microsoft Sims 1,2,3.... etc... Sims Racing 5000) GTA, Test Drive etc... are still arcade and maybe someday someone makes a realistic version of one, but I dont personally care, and the mass doesnt want realistic, they want fun.
Outside the box for the last 10 years. Mix Driver ( plot) GTA ( enviro ) BF3 ( badass guns) and rF2. 4 team MP shooter / sim Play cops and robbers realtime.
I agreed with those above who said don't mix games with sims... Until I envisioned your awesome scenario.
Join the best shooter and sim people together, whether cops or robbers ( what ever scenario is played out ) your teams would need the best simulation wheel men and the best weapons people. Idea has interested me since since Driver, Interstate'76 and MCO days and later Mafia etc. I suppose it will require a new level of engine and software, just look how constrained and unrealistic swapping to vehicles in shooters looks as it is. Sims cars boots bonnets and doors would need to open for a start. Driver Driver San Francisco, what a crapper ........it could be awesome.
Yeah. I did like Driver and interstate'76 alot, been hoping for a modern sequal that could match the quality and fun factor of those ever since.
Imagine 4 man team teamspeak in badassed chase around a cityscape. One guy is telling the wheel man to drive faster, one saying go left, one saying go right Driver telling them all to stfu lopl
Drifting around streets in fully fledged sim, shooting out tyres and windows with uzis. Intelligent Ai cars that at traffic lights lock up sliding sideways to a stop to let you through. Then you try the same thing 2 corners down and you get TBoned and you all die. Seriously I would drop racing titles. lol
Definitely looks good, but I don't have high hopes for the driving physics area. As we know, all Bohemia's combat sims have horrible car physics... Outerra is awesome technical feat, but it has to tackle the issue of procedural landscapes looking very uninteresting. Even when based on real geo data. This has always been a challenge in games. Car combat game with real physics is just one, and very good idea that could be made. There are tons of possibilities, racing RPG, Driver style chase game, Mad Max, proper Street Rod remake...
What ever is the content/feature/graphic/physic future of sims, its the people that make or break the games. You need customers and you need visibility to have a thriving genre. Every single real life race, is a commercial for sim racing, especially to those who has any interest in gaming, and its the game studios who then make it work for them... or not. eSports is something that also brings alot of new players to any genre that reaches those levels and racing sims being sport games are made for skill based competitive game play. http://uk.gamespot.com/features/meeting-the-worlds-fastest-gamer-6404335/
Reminds me of All Points Bulletin but instead of telling them to stfu you just turned the music of the car louder so no one can hear anything anymore
Interesting topic I think a few factors are at play that complicate things: Racing 'sims' are often not just games for entertainment, but hobbies for enthusiasts. That makes it a serious thing to people. Unfortunately as we are now these 'hobbies' in gaming are becoming more niche, as the cost to produce them isn't recovered with the relatively small fan-base. Second, a moderate increase in physics accuracy for GTA types games would probably be 'OMG, so realistic' for a majority of gamers. The extra effort to provide 'sim' physics just wouldn't be worth it for the few that notice. Third, if you have guns and stuff, do you really care that the tyres might flat-spot, or an extra few PSI affects grip? I.e. How far do you really want the simulation to go in that case? We're a special lot us 'hobbyists,' we appreciate that extreme attention to detail. But, unfortunately I don't think many of us are so enthusiastic that we'd each pay the devs $500 so they can continue to make it possible as the effort and time to do so increases. I don't think it's about thinking outside the box, it's just diminishing returns, which sucks.
For non simmers, the first time you drive a sim is deeply horrible. Having to brake and slow down soooo much for a corner feels wrong because they will be used to arcade racers. So bringing sim physics to mainstream games will likely NEVER happen. But one sim i've always dreamt of is a sim that feels really alive under 30mph, and uses a world instead of tracks, where you can drive across the alps with a few mates in a pure sim, stop off in gas stations, have satnav, and so on. To have great feeling under 30mph in a driving sim would be something i'd love to see, especially if the map is based on real life roads and covers hundreds of miles.
