Im pretty sure the mod will get released guys, i cant see how months maybe years of unpaid work will go to waste when this is just a personal project, these guys arent making money from it, on top of that just change all the names of the files and game stuff to something else other than porsche and on top of that just do a quick edit of the skins and change the porshe emblem a bit then you should be good to go. I have a feeling enduracers wrote that statement just to please porsche, i cant actually picture them cancelling this whole project and running scared when they arent even selling/making money from it, its just modified files of a publicly available video game that someone has played around with on their own in their own time in their own home, they arent selling the product or marketing or any business conduct in any way shape or form. If i drew a picture of a porshe i can give that picture to my friends and anyone the hell else i feel like. Im not making money off it, making false claims, or doing any sort of business conduct off it what so ever, its just a picture i drew myself, dont see how its any different. I think porshe are just being pricks because they got caught when they used basically all project cars footage to advertise their new so called "sim". I mean how retarded can you be, hey guys were comming out with a new movie, its going to be about super heroes, we have millions of dollars for the budget of this movie, but hey dont bother making a trailer preview, were just going to use clips from other movies already out like batman and such. Like wow how retarded and lazy can you be, you can spend millions on making a freaking video game, but when it comes time to make a simple video to advertise it on you just take videos of a completely different companies product and call it your own? What the lolololololol
Unfortunately it's quite not like that, we have already discussed it on this forum, technically all the free mods that recreate accurately real cars are illegal. It's just all other car manufacturers until now didn't care or didn't know or didn't even mind. I don't know exact laws or even where to find them, but I imagine it's similar to putting copyrighted music in your youtube videos, even if your videos are 100% free and you will never make one dollar out of them (let's forget its now possible to put ads in it, this started before the money making feature was in), youtube developed system that mutes copyrighted music. Not because youtube would care, but because recording companies sued youtube.
This is so counterintuitive, but hey isn't law often counterintuitive? I mean seriously. It's a damn game! Not a real car! What if I wrote a book about Porches. Can I not do that?
If i film a porsche on the street then put it on youtube thats copyright infrigement? Also if they did what i mentioned above with the name and logo how is that copyright and how is that different to me drawing a picture or making my own cgi animation of a car that looks like a porsche?
Don't ask me. I have no idea what exactly is infigement and what is not. By every common sense I would absolutely say that free mods can't be illegal. Several trustworthy members here said it's the opposite that's true, let's wait for somebody who clears it up. If there's something I'm sure about, law is about anything BUT common sense. Edit: I don't want to search anything detailed, however even a simple wiki quote tells us something: Copyright infringement is the unauthorized use of works under copyright, infringing the copyright holder's "exclusive rights", such as the right to reproduce or perform the copyrighted work, spread the information contained within copyrighted works, or to make derivative works. Notice there's not a single word about money or profit. So I guess if you draw a car that looks exactly like a porsche and give it to your son, its infringement lol.
Porsche has licensed their cars exclusively to some companies for use in their games. Licenses that cost those companies a good amount, I'd wager...so all Porsche is doing is protecting their investment and the companies that paid for those exclusive rights. Also, there was/maybe still going to be a racing game featuring Porsches...the whole Animaniax/SMS fiasco. That still might be in the works, so Porsche could be doing this to help ensure that game doesn't have any competition, sales wise. As has been previously stated, the modeling of a specific car...without licensing that car from the appropriate manufacturer...is a big legal no-no. Also, as someone mentioned....the use of the RUF name in other games using a Porsche'ish model has gotten around that. Car manufacturers really have not gone after modders in the past...maybe because it was good, free advertisement but with the current explosion of racing titles out/coming out soon and the licensing fees paid by some of those companies, ISI maybe included for the F2 series car, I imagine they might pay more attention....especially in today's economy where that licensing fee is worth more to the company that's paying it if it results in sales. If ISI did pay for the F2 license, I'm sure they wouldn't be happy to see the F2 model and name being touted in someone else's racing title and it not cost them anything to do so, even if it was made by a individual group not associated with that game. From a legal view, they are well within their rights to do what they've done. As an open-wheel fan, if FOM or the FIA decided to start contacting modding groups and give them Cease and Desist orders to protect Codemaster's investment in the F1 series, I would hate it...but they would be within their right to do so.
At the same time you have to consider that there is such a thing as "fair use", which covers everything else, like saying "porsche", im technically violating a trademark right there, but writing that name would fall under the "Fair use" category.
Claiming copyright on any image or likeness gets to a silly level, with everything corporatised (if thats a word lol) these days you technically cant take a photo or video anywhere without someone possibly claiming a copyright infringement. Professional photographers are making money selling images of race cars every day and sponsors pay money to have prominent signage in order to be seen in these photo's and videos being published. Without the publicity and if the race teams were to try and take a stand against using their likeness in professional photography then it would force all photographers to blur out all sponsorship which in tern would then make it useless to the companies paying big dollars for this prominent advertising space. How is a photo or video any different to a video game model, the sponsors are getting exposure and the more accurate the model is the more likely people will relate to the car brand and sponsors of the team. The way I see it is the car manufacturers cant really have their cake and eat it, the car is used as a mobile billboard for them to raise money in order to be able to race. Then limiting use of this advertising is hurting their sponsors exposure which may reduce their funding until they cant afford to race anymore if the sponsors dont think they are getting enough exposure. Every man made object that you your self didnt make is the design and property of someone else, to what level would a court take a stance against this and back the copyright holder. If there is no evidence of harm to the rights holder financially or through reputation they have no claim against you, if you are making a profit from their property then they can claim a royalty but thats about it. Then when the rights holder is trying to claim rights over a public moving billboard of sorts I think the claims are on very thin ice. They can claim all they like but that doesn't mean that would hold up in a court or that they want to take it that far, mostly a threatening letter or email will scare many off and a few will stand up for themselves and challenge the claim. I personally would rather not have a case go to court in case the copyright holder was to win and set a precedent that others may use to try and block other mods. But at the end of the day if your not effecting the owner of the brand in a negative way, this can include financial deals made for exclusive rights in other commercial software products. This is more of an issue for modders but I am surprised that Formula 1 who are very protective of their brand have never made a stand against modders. F1 does sell exclusive gaming rights for Im sure pretty large chunks of change, if Codemasters or F1 haven't tried to stop free modding groups yet its a bit strange that Porsche may be trying to make a stand. Regarding the Youtube censorship they pretty much block anything and most of the time they are in the wrong, Im not talking commercial music but they have blocked content on my channels which I had all rights to. I have had music given to me by a musician for the exact purpose of using it in some of my videos which was then claimed for by another person claiming to have rights to the music they didn't even have. I have also been ordered by a big company to remove their logo's from some videos and images that were their own property. I was allowed to use the brand name but not in their stylized font and also allowed to use images of the product as long as it wasn't one they have taken themselves. They only held the copyright for the exact stylized font in this example it was GoPro and I also had used an image from their website of one of the cameras. The only reason they even made a claim is because I was showing a flaw in the product that was fixed by a 3rd party as there are millions of other users using their logo's with no issue. A company will make a claim only if you make them look bad or are hurting them financially but I see race teams selling advertising space and then trying to limit its exposure as only hurting their sponsors and image more then anything else. It wont take sales away from competing software as most sim racers will likely buy much of the garbage produced by others anyway like me lol. And the core audience of these type of games have hardly ever even heard of PC sim racing or modding, they will likely buy the game no matter if there is a mod of the same car or series made for R Factor or another PC sim.
I think you will find most have nothing to do with "protecting their brand" and more to do with "protecting their investment". We do not know what the license is between Porsche and SMS/<insert that other mob>. It might have said that with that license purchase any other replication in the form of a video game is prohibited. It might have said Porsche will defend the license agreement. Hell I have no idea if that is how the license agreements work. Tim might have more of an idea about licenses than any here on the forum. Can you give us some info about the license work you have done Tim (no in relation to the enduracers mod) in general. Are there set rules for licenses? Common ground etc? More curiosity here.
If they changed the names of the mod and cars to something else and removed all reference to Porsche...including badges on the cars; Could they then release the mod? It seems like a lot of work to just toss in the trash. Heck! there's a very popular game in pre-alpha using tracks we all recognize, but using different names...and they're getting paid. What's the difference?
I think that Porsche is almost only one that actually can still make lawsuit if model is 911, that is bit special case but from my memory 911 shape itself is such that it is not allowed to use that shape in any form without licence. But take Toyota Corolla as example, it has not widely recognized unique figure, it is clone of so many other same class cars which only small details separate it from the rest, remove emblems, make small changes to body trim, especially grille, and your Coyota Torolla is something that resembles but is not the same, not possible with P911 as it's general shape is protected even it is just a stretched beetle, not really huge design innovation there, however if I draw single line that is recognized as 911 shape they are probably screaming how they want their license fees or whatever and I don't have anything to do with that company because of their policy. Maybe some other cars can make it out from grass too? Oh yes, even this kind of video must be copyright infringement in their eyes:
What about if ALL mods are ilegal? because you are using brand/names and images that are copyrighted? for ex. the f1 1988 mod from c4 (the rf1 one), the name mclaren is a registered trademark, the shape of the mp 4/4 is property of mclaren, the very name Ayrton Senna is a registered trademark. Also, those who say it's free advertising, in the fantasy island it's free advertising, in the real world they look as steal.
I suppose thats what theyll do, but still its a pity So, youve stolen your avatar? I dont think Ayrton and Huan Manuel would think this way...
He just changed his name, I think. However technically using other brand is something that should not be done, so maybe technically most mods are illegal, especially those that include some brand, but also they are free advertising which can be seen as payment for usage if company has any honest backbone, however those slimy spineless greed companies are probably coming and stopping even free mods being made, but we can always vote with our decisions. If companies are allowed to have their way, in future it could be that companies will take mods and sell those then. They probably even can do that, all they need to do is threaten to sue mod maker and if mod was already released ask for compensation in cash or by giving away all work, which they can then sell as a mod. Of course it will not be good for us few here, but think about if car makers start to sell mods for rF2 and advertise rF2 on their sites, "now you can test drive our car virtually", it would be horrible thing for modding community, but there is no denying it that it would increase sales of rF2, also car companies might see it better way of getting people to buy their products when they control mods etc. Of course then Autodesk might sue modder from mod that he had to give to car company as car company is making money and modder had only student license, even modder is not going to see single cent of that money. Not today's issue of course, but what about when there start to be more and more of titles that offer just a base where user creates their content? Then mods will be mainstream and then such might be one possible path things end up to. Luckily it is mostly new cars and such which is facing troubles, 20-30 year old models are such that no car company cares to bother with that stuff, except Porsche with their 911.
I don't know about laws, but indeed, from they perspective (enterprises, nor Ayrton or Juan, God have him in the glory) i'm using a non royalty free image. I don't know how we dind't see this comming.
Why would Porsche or Ferrari care about allowing "free advertising" when that "free advertising" may hurt product sales of other people who actually pay them money to "advertise" their products?
Oh, poor companies, poor shareholders... "And if you blue sky mining company won't come to my rescue If the sugar refining company won't save me Who's gonna save me?"
Probably gov. that is what I often hear, gov. should of done this or that, but people themselves are never in need to do anything, everything should be done to them, which I find rather interesting way of thinking. We have lost so much freedom over feeling of safety that it is already absurd, maybe it is now time to loose freedom of modding too, I'm afraid that will happen unless people stand up against that, but I'm afraid there are only tiny majority even in modders that would be willing to actually make stand in this.
I'd argue that mods used to be mainstream, but now the modding scene is on a massive decline in the Videogame industry. Look at Desert Combat, Forgotten Hope, Project Reality and AIX2 for Battlefield 1942 & 2. They were amazing Look at Mods for Diablo 2 and now compare them with BF3 and Diablo 3. No mod tools whatsoever. Companies are more and more less likely to release SDK tools for their software, when idiots buy " Season Passes " for DLC at £ 40 a pop. Why release mod tools so that i can make a 4km Square map in Battlefield 2 and fully navmesh it ( Something DICE never managed by the way ) and release it for free, when they can charge you £12 for 4 1km square maps? As for companies suing modders for using their logos in games, then it's a double edged sword. I can maybe understand say Burger King kicking off because someone converts clucking bell in GTA into a BK then films themselves doing drive-by's in it and posts it on YouTube, but if the original mod is done with taste and respect, then i do not think that it would be a problem. I hope so anyway, otherwise i will probably end up going to prison for the amount of logo's i used in my last mod,lol : http://www.soccergaming.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171002
