Thank You 397 but could you fix whats broken first?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by MotherDawg, May 4, 2021.

  1. pilAUTO

    pilAUTO Registered

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    We have all shown excessive patience over the past 4 years or more.

    At the same time the chosen/prioritized developments are overall very long, but worse much worse and it's personal, the choice of the developments to prioritize is in my opinion very bad, which is frustrating (of course everyone will have their own personal appreciation of this point).


    To be really honest, I sure wish rFactor 2 got better and better, as I've always been a very big fan, but if an Assetto Corsa 2 comes out, with slightly better physics than ACC, the Nurburgring Nordschleife, the car content resembling that of Assetto Corsa 1, and all the qualities of ACC .......

    In my case it will be GOODBYE rFactor 2.

    Tired of being patient, waiting for the AI, physics, performance optimization and VARIED quality content (FWD, street cars, AWD ......).
     
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  2. Kelju_K

    Kelju_K Registered

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    Do you understand that he exploits to come to the light of day made a long journey?
    DO you think that pro simracers that finds a flaw that makes them faster, is the first one to complain about it?
    It went from them to Ermin due his connections being sim racing celeb and, from him to us mere mortals.
    Then we started to complain about it.
    It took much longer for them to come to the light of day, than it took S397 to make emergency fixes to the model, after everyone was whining abou them. Me included.
    BUT how fast they got on to it, is nothing short of a miracle really.
    How much in a hurry you are really?
    Use them then if winning is so important to you. Or you could accept their existence, not use them, and know that you placed few positions behind of you skill level because of them.
    Choose your pick.
     
  3. Sim_Player

    Sim_Player Registered

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    Lol , people use "don't use it" card..pathetic really.
    This is not fukin forza, it is supposed to simulate vehicle physics as accurately as possible.not but perfect but good enough will do...this not good enough far from it.
    it does not even has proper camber implications ffs, there zero excuses for these exploits which can be (and should ) fixed considering how LONG they have existed.
    yet all we see is graphics and ui wow how unbearable are those ,right ? infort of physics IN A SIMULATOR!

    Stop defending this mess
     
  4. Jeremy Talbot

    Jeremy Talbot Registered

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    Are you serious? Yeah I could not use them and therefore be placed 2 divisions lower than I am because literally everyone else is using them. These exploits have been around for a lot longer than you think by the sounds of it.

    Enough excuses, these things need to be fixed, it's literally the only thing holding rf2 back from being great.
     
  5. Kelju_K

    Kelju_K Registered

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    I been big a big critic of this game and others, when there are flaws. Been frustrated and angry.
    I was one of the biggest critics when the then new CPM tiremodel came, and believed strongly that separate oval tires would have been the better choice. I still do actually. But here we are. This current model is far better than the original CPM model was then.

    I have been simracing since -97, and my marriage to this hobby is like any old marriage. There are disputes, arguments, but i still love this hobby, with all my heart. Till death us apart.
    Luckily, monogamy is not required in this marriage, so i have a harem.
    So go screw around if this starts to feel too frustrating for you.
    And i realize that patience is a virtue needed to have any marriage succeed.
    Make noise when it's needed, but keep your expectations of change realistic.

    I have had long brakes from this game, enjoying other sims in the mean time.
    But im still here ;)
     
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  6. JamesB

    JamesB Registered

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    That's a sensible perspective on things. There are serious annoyances for me as well but I just finished a GTE race at Brands and I loved it. Issues around the mechanics of the game all drifted away as I was totally immersed in the experience.
     
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  7. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

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    And you'll think those exploits will be gone forever if they fix them? Hardly. They'll just find a new one.

    But people seem to think that the people who handle the graphics are the same people who handle the physics. THEY. AREN'T.
     
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  8. Sim_Player

    Sim_Player Registered

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    Little bit of exploits are inevitable but c'mon now , you can't less this big of a hole in a simulator.
    i can live with min pressure for example, but other stuff is bit too much.
    I know graphics and physics guys are different but all these roadmaps don't even say anything regarding any further ongoing physics fixes or features anything.
    "They will find just new one" is definitely the wrong mindset that is for sure tho.
    This is basically like saying ->
    you will get fat one day anyways so why exercise now......see problem in your logic ?
     
  9. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

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    It's not the wrong mindset at all. It's just truth. Assuming that they'll go away forever and we'll have a super duper ultra realistic simulation that obeys the rules of physics to the letter is wishful thinking at its absolute finest.

    People will find ANY way of finding that competitive advantage.
     
  10. Sim_Player

    Sim_Player Registered

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    point me where i said or assumed that exploits will go away forever ?
    Hell even point me where anyone in this thread assumed that this will make all exploits go away ....we only showing our concern that S397 should seriously focus on physics now, after all this is a business....demand and supply, enough people ask about this they will need to sort it quickly.
    Also Did you even read my comment ? i literally said the following
    What you are saying is true but here you are arguing for just arguments sake, every single time you whip out same generic response "no sim perfect " or "they find new one anyway " etc
    EVERYONE knows ffs.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  11. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    Just like I told you on discord, there are enough coders who do both graphics and physics. LFS is a great example for that, and of course Stefano from now Jaxx Vane Studio.

    Of course everyone will say the thing they want should have priority. In general I think improving anything that starts lacking compared to other sims, or affect usability if the software is good. Back when s397 took over, one of those things was graphics. It was probably the thing most people complained about. That's why they went dx11 and even up until today you see big improvements in graphics. Back then there weren't many if any sims that were good with on the limit driving, rain, day/night etc. to challenge rf2 in that aspect. Today though, the graphics have cought up with todays standard and will be for years to come with the upcoming reflections. It is most definitely not the Achilles heel anymore for rF2. This we can only be proud of, and S397 can be too.

    Without saying S397 should do X or Y, or state my opinion about what is the worst problem of rF2 right now, I will try to keep this as factual as possible. The main problems seem to be in the UI, game stability, and what seems to be turning most peoples heads to other sims, is how good other simulators are getting (I am very happy about this). For example, ACC doing GT racing very well, ACC and AMS2 doing wet weather driving very well with the puddles/aquaplaning. Although I usually say this as a joke, but the damage model. iRacing might be my least favo sim, but they definitely made a huge step in that aspect. It's just a matter of time until there will be a sim that does enough good enough/better than rF2.

    To let more of my opinion shine though, I think it's best for S397 to do things that make people look at rF2 and go, I want to try that. It's what iRacing did with their damage model for example. Everyone jumped on to test it out. Simulate something really good again. Let it be rain, it might be damage, it can be a very good upgrade to the tyre model, anything. But when you do, make sure that when people try out rF2 again, they aren't met with a eye burning horizontal scrolling UI and many game crashes, an annoying package system all together. Make sure those things are minimal (because I definitely can't expect S397 to fix all of it).
     
  12. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

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    I can see why 397 is adding new graphics stuff. Because what's the first thing anyone will mention when looking at something before trying it? Graphics. Show footage of gameplay and the first thing people will mention is graphics. Rf2 is still behind on that aspect, but getting better.

    Sure, we're all frustrated the bits we want aren't getting worked on and what we want should be the priority, but the foot stamping isn't going to help things from some.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
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  13. Pawel44

    Pawel44 Registered

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    And what's your point? Leave bugs, because there always will be bugs? I currently regret I bought this game and I stopped playing it for now. I don't care much about graphics, but so obviously broken physics is something I won't accept.

    Do you really think most of the rF2 player base are idiots who only care about graphics? We're on PCs not on consoles if you missed the point. Nobody buys this game for graphics and I doubt it will ever change. Realism/physics were its main selling point (I bought this game, because some fanboy was praising its realism on youtube). However, it seems developers do not care or - what's more probable, they have no clue how to fix it.
     
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  14. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

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    I didn't say the Rf2 player base, did I? I was talking about people seeing it for the first time. People seeing rF2 for the first time not knowing anything about its status as a sim will base the book by its cover. I've done live streams (and my audience isn't really a sim racing audience) and I'll have had "Looks like a PS2 game", "what weird graphics", "This game looks so bad".

    Didn't say that either.
     
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  15. FAlonso

    FAlonso Registered

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    You should assume that the game is not going to change, I suppose you are aware that rF2 has a small number of players and the changes you want do not bring money for the developers. rF2 is an outdated product in all areas, the update it needs is called rF3. It is the only way to attract profits.
     
  16. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    I would hazard a guess that folks who compare rF2 to a PS2 game are not the type of user who would gravitate TO rF2. I know, I KNOW you need a hook to get them attracted, but we had that with the wipers and rain,(if ONLY the puddle maps and wet lines also arrived) we've had that with some really great looking cars & tracks too.

    Looks are like the High School Cheerleader. They catch your eye, but it's what is Under that Bleached Blonde hairdo that will keep a user hanging around. Feel, more than a funky UI, Feel, more than bright splashes of Sky, Feel and realistic behavior is the strength of rF2. I would love to see all sorts of graphic doo-dads, but first it should provide a clear-cut superior RACING EXPERIENCE. That is the key, whether that is via Online or Solo offline, the Racing Experience is where rF2 should be, imnsho, focusing on. If that comes from a phyiscs rework, or an AI overhaul, or changing net-code that doesn't want to easily allow drivers to share setups, configs, and skins. Whatever brings RACING to us best, that is where all eyes at S397 should be looking at.

    If a user with a 5 year old laptop and a gamepad came here asking for help, I doubt he would find a-lot of us interested in helping. Unless we could convince him that rF2 is more than just pointing the nose of a car toward a corner apex. (no matter how pretty that apex is...)
     
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  17. AlexHeuskat

    AlexHeuskat Registered

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    For me rF2 needs a sound/AI major updates, and of course 10 more tracks, like Oulton, Brands Hatch....
    About FFB/physics, I think we won't see better for a long time, until ISI made a new 3d engine....so rF2 has again a long future.
    I use ACC too, and the sound is amazing, it adds a huge immersion which can hide the less advanced FFB/physics compared to rF2.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
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  18. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Turning the steering wheel more doesn't quite work like that. You don't simply gain more grip at all. Sometimes it really slows you down and than, because of the understeer created, the car can turn more... There is also the element of rotation on throttle. I think that might actually be more of a problem right now. If understeer can be dealt so easily by throttle steer then one can compensate that and rotate the car. Understeer like that of AC is not realistic. Understeer normally doesnt just ever stop and put you in a straight line, even less in aero based cars.



    Try to find me any car that drives like this in ACC. You can't! Cars in ACC just arent nimble. They feel too heavy and suspensions don't seem to capture quite well the subtlelties of a real car. You can see a lot that the driver uses a lot of jabs to make the car to rotate more... Rfactor 2 reproduces this very well and it's one of the reasons it can be exploited by people that really want too, using lower FFB and some other trickery.

    Even if Rfactor2 can be broken in ways, what most people are doing is they cant see the forest from the trees! RF2 when behaving normally is much closer to ACC. Just because ACC or another game (mentioning ACC too much, but people seem to be torn between those two a lot) can't be broken quite in the same ways, doesnt mean they can get the dynamics of the car as well as RF2. It just means it doesn't have the same issues. Well. I am sorry to say, but for my personal use of driving offline and even online without taking major advantage of lower FFB and other setup options, RF2 is the closest to real thing.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2021
  19. Sim_Player

    Sim_Player Registered

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    You are right, turning more steering doesn't generate more grip but this is a faster way to get car pointing where you want instead of lift off throttle and waiting for front tyres to grip.
    Just for clarification , when i say more steering i'm not saying adding complete 180 degrees or some stupid angles . these turning more "exploits" only works when you do it very subtly.

    I Also agree on throttle steering is bit too much in RF2, they need to find a way to turn that down.

    Both of these points towards tyres over the limit behaviour.
     
  20. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    I think that same behavior happens in ACC. I've heard it mentioned by GM (GamerMuscle) and he also has noticed that one can abuse the steering angle and brute force the corners... I've played it a lot, so I agree 100% has I myself drove like that a lot. That ruins tires much more though. Not sure how much it should impact the tires in either sim.
     

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