Steering Wheels - Which is Best for PC Sims? (!!!)

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With CSW, I have to set higher FF coefficent values in rF 2 compared to what I use for T500RS, to get similar FF strenght. The difference is noticable.
 
jubuttib said:
How is the FF in the T500 RS stronger? Sincerely wondering, because the only real measurements I've seen show that the CSW can move and especially accelerate and change direction much faster than the T500 RS, which would suggest more power overall. How exactly does the T500 RS feel stronger, how does it manifest itself?
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I've never used the CSW (or the CSR-E which uses the same motors) but from what I do know about the motors used in both the CSW and the T500RS- in the case of the CSW, there are two Mabuchi RS550s 60w motors(although there are allegations that these are custom RS550) in each of the base while the T500RS uses one Buehler DC motor (1.13.044.XXX).

Looking at specs for each of these motors, the Buehler has a higher maximum constant torque- 100 mNm compared to 41.7 mNm from the Mabuchi- even when you take into account that a pair of the Mabuchi are being used, they still measure lower than a single Buehler. On the other hand the Mabuchi has a higher RPM compared to the Buehler- 15300 rpm vs. 3900 rpm (no load).

I don't know how these translates into measurement- although the fact that the CSW uses a pair of motors could account for it being better at acceleration (and how much faster it is at changing direction). On the other hand, the higher torque motor in the T500RS could mean that it produces more raw power.
 
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mikem said:
I've never used the CSW (or the CSR-E which uses the same motors) but from what I do know about the motors used in both the CSW and the T500RS- in the case of the CSW, there are two Mabuchi RS550s 60w motors(although there are allegations that these are custom RS550) in each of the base while the T500RS uses one Buehler DC motor (1.13.044.XXX).

Looking at specs for each of these motors, the Buehler has a higher maximum constant torque- 100 mNm compared to 41.7 mNm from the Mabuchi- even when you take into account that a pair of the Mabuchi are being used, they still measure lower than a single Buehler. On the other hand the Mabuchi has a higher RPM compared to the Buehler- 15300 rpm vs. 3900 rpm (no load).

I don't know how these translates into measurement- although the fact that the CSW uses a pair of motors could account for it being better at acceleration (and how much faster it is at changing direction). On the other hand, the higher torque motor in the T500RS could mean that it produces more raw power.
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Great points, thanks for that. =)
 
in terms of precision, acceleration, top speed, and direction change how do the CSR non-elite and the T500RS stack up the the G25 (and/or G27). I heard that other than in top speed where the T500 has the logi beat, that in all the other categories the logi wins, even though it has a lot less raw power. Is this true? There was a chart with a bunch of tests....

On a side note, I saw on another test not on this site, that the G25 was actually a bit faster than the G27, cant remember if it was accel, top speed or dir change but it was on of them.
 
Spinelli said:
in terms of precision, acceleration, top speed, and direction change how do the CSR non-elite and the T500RS stack up the the G25 (and/or G27). I heard that other than in top speed where the T500 has the logi beat, that in all the other categories the logi wins, even though it has a lot less raw power. Is this true? There was a chart with a bunch of tests....

On a side note, I saw on another test not on this site, that the G25 was actually a bit faster than the G27, cant remember if it was accel, top speed or dir change but it was on of them.
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I'm pretty sure that both Fanatec CSR (non-Elite) and TM T500RS use the older method of a single motor with toothed belt/pulley. But unlike the higher-end CSW and CSR-E, the CSR uses a single motor- the same Mabuchi RS550.

My humblest opinion is that measurement gives a good indication of what to expect but it's not always indicative of real world application. Especially when it comes to haptic/tactile signals like FFB (or audio/sound). Which is the case when comparing belt-drive and gear/direct-drive- the latter is intrinsically better therefore it will measure better.

Having own both the G25 and the T500RS, my opinion is that there are compromises to both wheels. My biggest gripe with the G25 is its power- while the FFB is in no way anemic, it does clip or distort when driven hard and/or after a duration of time. This perhaps due to the motors used in each of these wheels. Also there's the equation of power supply- the T500RS's PS is rated @ 160W, the CSR @ 60W while the G25/G27 @ 40W. Had the PS/Motors being equally rated, there's no denying the T500RS would not have felt as good as it is or that the G25/G27 would actually perform as well as its measurements.

As to the speed between the G25 and G27- small insignificant weight differences can and often do translates into different speed measurement. There's also the fact that while the G25 uses spur/straight cut gear, the G27 uses helical which has more friction.
 
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mikem said:
I don't know how these translates into measurement- although the fact that the CSW uses a pair of motors could account for it being better at acceleration (and how much faster it is at changing direction). On the other hand, the higher torque motor in the T500RS could mean that it produces more raw power.
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nice info maybe of note from what I understand the G25 uses one motor predominately for torque and one predominately for shakes and high frequency movements/twitches.

I believe CSW , CSRE might be doing the same sort of thing though belt driven saying that it might be using both motors in synchrony or one for each direction of force ( or a combination of all of these)
 
I have owned a Momo red then a G25 then a G27 and now I am on a fanatec gt3 with clubsport pedals, I go through my pedals fairly quick due to having a heavy foot and being a size 14, Dont I repeat dont! buy the f430 I have tried one and its really bad in my opinion, like most are saying you cant really go wrong with logitech 25/27 with your budget just be careful if going for the g25 as it could be 4/5 years old with well worn pedals as they did suffer over time, good luck with your choice and to add I love my fanatec no probs here for me and love being able to adjust settings while driving in the car :)
 
Thanks!I planning to switch from G27 to the T500rs but i like my G27 pedals bacause i have modded them with APELETTRIC Load-cell and i'm in love with this mod!I have tried the T500rs pedals 2 times and they suck!
 
So other than raw power and top speed, does the t500 lag behind the g25/27 in terms of precision, direction change and lag between signal and ffb output?
 
Spinelli said:
in terms of precision, acceleration, top speed, and direction change how do the CSR non-elite and the T500RS stack up the the G25 (and/or G27). I heard that other than in top speed where the T500 has the logi beat, that in all the other categories the logi wins, even though it has a lot less raw power. Is this true? There was a chart with a bunch of tests....

On a side note, I saw on another test not on this site, that the G25 was actually a bit faster than the G27, cant remember if it was accel, top speed or dir change but it was on of them.
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CSR non-Elites haven't really been tested or at least the results haven't been published (if someone has one, PM me), gut the T500 RS, at least with the older drivers was very significantly slower to respond to FFB commands than the Logis, and much slower to change direction especially (it seems to struggle accelerating in the other direction after coming to a stop, much much slower than it can accelerate from a standstill). It is much faster though when it gets going.

I've seen some results that suggest that the G27 would be slightly slower than the G25, but at least when testing my G25 against a friend's G27 there was barely any difference. The G27 responded 2ms quicker to the first command but my G25 took up the slack by changing directions a bit quicker. Both also freewheeled identically, so there really is no difference at least in those two. We made absolutely sure to test both with the same settings.
Spinelli said:
So other than raw power and top speed, does the t500 lag behind the g25/27 in terms of precision, direction change and lag between signal and ffb output?
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Basically yes, unless the newer updates have changed the wheel's performance significantly. I'd like it very much if a T500 RS owner got in touch with me so we could get some fresh data.
 
Originally Posted by Spinelli
So other than raw power and top speed, does the t500 lag behind the g25/27 in terms of precision, direction change and lag between signal and ffb output?
Basically yes, unless the newer updates have changed the wheel's performance significantly. I'd like it very much if a T500 RS owner got in touch with me so we could get some fresh data.
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Synthetic Measurements are not everything, in "real" live the wheel is hold by our hands and my practical experience is way apart from this test.
The Logitech wheels are very bad at the center, at first there is no FFB and then it kicks in. Its also impossible to make realy fast movements, the gear drive has a high resistance at fast turns. FFB feels synthetic and not "right".
The "old" Fanatec Wheels like Turbo-S or GT2 have a better FFB than the Logitechs, no problems at center, but are a bit "slow".
The Thrustmaster T500RS is not perfect, but its really very fast, the belt-drive is never a "brake" in fast turns. The FFB is very strong but also very detailed and even at highest strength able to "show" you a little pebble stone on the road without "transforming" it to a "rock" - no other wheel in this pricerange can do this.
With the F1-Rim-Addon the T500RS is even better, a little bit faster and still more sense of fine detail. Shaun Cole from insidesimracing.tv loves this wheel. I bought this Addon a week ago and now I know why. I can not even imagine to drive a Formula-Car with the GT-Rim anymore. Its not only the more realistic feeling, the lap times are a lot better with the F1-Rim, and i can catch an oversteering car a lot easier.

And not to forget: the Logitech Wheelsensor has a really low resolution compared to Fanatec GT2/Turbo-S... or Thrustmaster T500RS.
 
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