steering lock

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by REVHED666, Aug 7, 2012.

  1. Gearjammer

    Gearjammer Registered

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    Still trying to figure out how those of us that like to have real physics are considered snobs, hehe.
     
  2. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    I hope, that one day, "high-steering rate drivers" will be penalized by increased tire wear.
    It is quite clear that higher steering rate is less precise and must generate more tire wear.
    Of course it is not applicable to "aliens" - but they are able to drive with any steering rate.
     
  3. Gearjammer

    Gearjammer Registered

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    Why should there be any penalty for driving a car good with a high steering rate? The same could be said for driving a car with low wing values and increased tire wear, but I think that anyone who can handle the car well, regardless of setting doesn't need another obstacle to overcome, they are already overcoming quite a few. In a car like a F1, you have to be fast with your steering anyways, so it only makes sense to not penalize them.
     
  4. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    By writing "penalize" I meant realistic tyre wear which is sensible for overturning the steering wheel.
    To me it's obvious that higher steering rate (lower steering angle for the same turn radius) makes steering less precise. One of consequences of lower precision may be higher tire wear. That's it.

    If all F1 drivers use the same hight steering rate - then all have same conditions and tire wear depends on driver skills. But if all are using about 540* and some are using 240*, 240* is less precise resulting over-wearing edges of tires. A car with tires worn this way is not able to turn any more.

    It is one of most important flaws in rf1 tire physics. I've heard it is improved in rF2, but for example Clios allow to overturn steering wheel without significant penalty (tire wear)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 17, 2012
  5. Gearjammer

    Gearjammer Registered

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    OK, I understand now, hehe, sorry to be a pain :)
     
  6. KeiKei

    KeiKei Registered

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    On the other hand with quicker steering one can correct slides faster so it will lower rear tire wear thus being "more precise".

    Personally prefer quick steering rate 9:1. Is this considered "snob"? :)
     
  7. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    True but this this another kind of wear. Overturning wheel you destroy edges of tires which plays main role when turning under load. And due to small surface of this area of tire, it should be very easy to completely worn it in short timespan when overturning steering wheel.

    Other thing is: how often you need to catch a slide comparing to doing corners? ;)

    Is there any difference between using 240 and 540 rotation maintaining 9:1 ratio?
     
  8. KeiKei

    KeiKei Registered

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    Yes, and it makes me slower too so trying to avoid that of course. Still feel 9:1 is not too fast for tire wear but on the other hand can't tell for sure. Really looking forward for tire wear modeling and it's impact on races.

    I was waiting for this question! :D Mainly under pressure I tend to be all over the places. ;) IMHO fast steering is a double edged sword; while it's easier to catch slides then on the other hand it's also easy to overdrive the car under pressure thus leading excessive tire temps/wear, mistakes, etc.

    Yes the steering lock is lower when the wheel range is lower (if steering ratio remains the same). That's why I always maximize the steering lock so the tires are able to turn as much as possible. Then I choose steering ratio (usually 9:1) and the rest is math:

    steering wheel range = steering lock (lock to center) * 2 * steering ratio

    Of course the wheel has to provide sufficient range but with 9:1 steering ratio the 900 degrees range of Logitech G27 is more than enough. For example Clio's maximum 33,5 degree steering lock with 9:1 steering ratio results 600 degree steering range so nowhere near what the G27 is able to provide.

    I don't have any issues if steering ratio would be locked with some cars since it would be same for everyone. The problem is not all of us have wheels providing enough wheel range which would force some drivers to use lower steering lock and/or non-linear steering and/or speed sensitive steering (which are all crap IMHO).

    So yes it would be best if tire wear is modeled as accurately as possible. :)
     
  9. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    I did drive 60's F1 car with 900 degrees and 27 degrees of lock, I think car should have 576 degrees for wheel turning, but that would make impossible to drive with 27 degrees lock.

    It was quite easy to keep in control, certainly I did not need all that turning and I had to be fast with wheel, but also I had no issue with over correcting which becomes issue for me quite easily if I use less steering wheel turns.

    Is that then anti-cheating as I don't make steering faster, but slower?
     
  10. cloudXXI

    cloudXXI Registered

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    17 degrees lock and you will have the same ratio
     
  11. Favio

    Favio Registered

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    It's not if you use appropriate steering rate, I don't have problems with high temp of tires, even in Clios, the trick is in the race line you choose.
    I don't believe that 240° and 9 deegres of steering lock could be considered "high steering rate", I don't like too soft steering, maybe it's because I learn to race in karts.
    Anyway, it's silly to discuss all this, at the end all that matters it's the sensitive of the driver.
     
  12. jubuttib

    jubuttib Registered

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    That's not really in anyway an issue with fast or slow steering though, just a question of implementing tyre wear properly so that turning the wheel too much wears them out like it should.
    It's 13.33333...:1, which is quite quick, from what I can gather a F3 car is most often (not always obviously) ran at around 12:1 or something like that, and the only figures I can find for modern GT type racing cars put them between 13:1 and 18:1 depending on the track and driver preferences. Though on that note I'll also say that the BMW M3 E92 has a steering ratio of 12.5:1, the Subaru Impreza WRX STi from 2002 has 13:1, Caterham R200-R600 series of cars had 10.4:1 and the Caterham Seven from 2001 has a whopping 8:1. Of not is also that street cars naturally need more maximum steering lock to enable them to maneuver properly in city conditions, and since they're not running on racing tyres they also benefit from more steering lock because road tyres work best at higher slipangles than racing slicks.
     
  13. Jorgen Wahlby

    Jorgen Wahlby Registered

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    I have been searching for the answer to this for quite some time now and finally I did some real investigation and sort of got hold of the answer. IF... you are like me and want to drive rFactor like a simulator and "simulate" the feel and movement as realistic as possible this is what I found: GT cars in general have a steering lock of about 600-650¤ and the LMP cars 400-450¤ Have been talking to former Simbin CO and Race driver "Henrik Roos" and he gave me the answer for the GT car he drove in the FIA GT (Viper GTS-R) Martin Short from "Rollcenter Racing" Helped me about the steering lock for the LMP2 they used in the "Le mans 2007" (Pescarola Judd LMP2) Here are some clips I found on you-tube as well.

    GT = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-HUaqeeXcM (2.00 min in the clip)
    GT = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBMmVqF6rSM (2.00 min in the clip)
    LMP = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjaVzwpYlrc (1.50 min in the clip)

    Hope I straightened out some questions and helped some of my fellow simracers :cool:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 16, 2013
  14. jubuttib

    jubuttib Registered

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    It really doesn't matter what the steering wheel range is, at all. As long as the car has a correct maximum steering lock for the front tyres, then the steering wheel range adjustment is just adjusting the steering ratio. They could put in a steering rack with 900 degrees of steering wheel movement into the GT cars if they wanted to, but that'd be way too slow for most driver's liking.
     
  15. osella

    osella Registered

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    Doesn't make any sense to me jubuttib. So you're saying if a real car has 28deg lock, it doesn't really matter if theres 200 rotation or 1080 rotation. Sure, lol.

    They could probably put 900 rack in a F1 car too, but it makes about as much sense as installing a huge television and a satelitte on top of the car.

    Honestly I have no idea why this topic has so many different opinions on every sim racing forums. To me it's extremely simple, nothing to discuss really:

    If you want realistic steering settings, look them up on internet and use those. End of discussion. I'M NOT however saying that you HAVE to use them. None of probably uses completely realistic setups anyway and in every sim its sometimes possible to take advantage of too benevolent garage settings which wouldn't work in real life but do in a sim. Zero ride height in GPL, anyone.
    So I don't care if you use 2x higher or 2x lower steering ratio compared to real car but don't say your settings are realistic then.

    Often various drivers from one racing series use slightly different racks and everything but it's never as extreme as say using 240rot and 20 lock which momo simracers often do.
     
  16. jubuttib

    jubuttib Registered

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    What I meant was that what sort of steering wheel range (and hence steering ratio) the real race cars have isn't really an issue as long as the maximum steering lock is correct. If the maximum steering lock is correct then how much the steering wheel turns is an issue of steering ratio, which is to a large extent an issue of driver preference, not a realism issue. =)

    I really really really really really really REALLY hope rF2 gets rid of separate controls for steering lock and steering wheel range, and just replaces them with a simple steering ratio setting. =)
     
  17. osella

    osella Registered

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    OK makes sense now :)
     
  18. lordpantsington

    lordpantsington Registered

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    Pretty good discussion going here. To add:
    In general desk mounted wheels are smaller than their in-car counterparts. Thus the argument could be made that the effort by the driver is then different and compensation is required to equalize.
     
  19. Marek Lesniak

    Marek Lesniak Car Team Staff Member

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    No, they would not, because of brake cooling ducts, tyre width and more aggressive suspension geometry - these are the reasons, why steering rack is limited more than for typical road legal car.
     
  20. jubuttib

    jubuttib Registered

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    If you're going to go that route then also take into consideration that no wheel on the market (well, possibly Frex... And Leo Bodnar's wheel isn't on the market) is powerful enough to really convey the forces that those cars can generate.
     

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