Specular issues with car body in rf2

Discussion in 'Car Modding' started by bison160, Feb 2, 2012.

  1. RMachucaA

    RMachucaA Registered

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    I think what you guys are actually complaining about is caused by sloppy normals, which are hidden by bright paintjobs and standout with dark paintjobs.
     
  2. D.Painter

    D.Painter Registered

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    This is how I do template. This is what I've done to the ISI Megane template.
    Agree or not, It works for me.
    MeganeTemplate.png

    The only time I may make a change to the ALPHA is if I want to add a chrome effect to any livery. You'll see full white areas, These will give you a higher shine so being light on the template and white on the alpha you get a mirror effect or creates chrome.

    This is a in-game shot of the car using this template and alpha combination. You can pick on the screen shot but take note of my PC Spec. It's not set to give the best visual effect so I can drive the thing.

    ISI_Megane.jpg
     
  3. bison160

    bison160 Registered

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    Sloppy normals? The fact is that those issues only show up in gmotor graphics engine. These models render fine in max, and the specular works great in other graphics engines.

    Now, I'm not saying my models are perfect, because they are not, but there is definetly a problem with the way the specular effects are being rendered. I hope it's something the guys at ISI are willing to adjust, but considering the lack of even 1 reply in this thread from them, it appears there is no interest in doing so.
     
  4. toebee

    toebee Registered

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    Can't say I know what a sloppy normal is. How do you fix that?

    That would be fine for a single color car, but if you do that to a half white, half black car you will see reflections in the white and none in the black. I always thought in real life black is one of the most reflective colors. It always shows imperfections. One of the reasons I bought a white car! So far the easiest method for me is to duplicate the paint layer. Greyscale the duplicate. Invert it. Then adjust it slightly with some brightness and contrast before saving it as an alpha layer. Its doable but a pain when you have a ton of skins.
     
  5. fanlebowski

    fanlebowski Registered

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    the alpha channel is linked to the reflection (cube map or live) not the specular effect.

    do you have this issue with all shaders bison ?

    i have it on my car too, but didn't test others skins colors at this moment.
     
  6. bison160

    bison160 Registered

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    Any shader I have tried with a specular causes it.

    I have been looking at a lot of reference photo's and took a walk yesterday when the sun was low in the sky and looked at and photographed many different shapes and colors of vehicles. I am thinking that the implementation of how the specular is displayed between light and dark colors is correct when using a high specular power.

    This pic shows top left, a light colored car which matches what I am getting in game with white spec color, power of about 60. I think it looks pretty good. on the top right, is a black car in the sun, which obviously absorbs more light, but creates a much more focused reflection of the sun and reflections period. The gmotor graphics seem to use this same effect so I'm happy with that. On the middle right is just another picture showing a focused specular effect along the body line of a "dull" black car. On the bottom LEFT, is a picture of a car on a cloudy day with very little direct sunlight. However, it still has a fairly focused spec. On the Bottom RIGHT, is a picture of a very dark day. There is hardly any focused light on this car which is very similar to gmotor specular if you were to use a very low specular power...like 5-10. I am comfortable that this effect is correct in game as well.

    View attachment 1044

    The main issue is with the smoothing of models. I have even added 2 mesh smooths to the model, and although the polys get smaller, there are still hot spots, and by that point, the model is way to high poly to use by the time you get 42 other's in there.
     
  7. fanlebowski

    fanlebowski Registered

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    i tried with a simple sphere and the carbody shader as in the tutorial.

    i have the same issue than you :
    View attachment 1045
    just changed the tex1 color, same alpha, same spec color (white) and power (5)
    with a black color we see the edges and it's very ugly ^^

    we really need better shaders, or uncrypted coreshaders.mas :p

    or maybe we make something wrong ? i don't see where here, it's just a basic sphere :(
     
  8. bison160

    bison160 Registered

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    I didn't think to do the sphere, thats a very good example, Thank you. No way you should be getting hotspots on a smoothed sphere.
     
  9. bison160

    bison160 Registered

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    could you do me a favor and change to spec power to 100 and post the results?
     
  10. bison160

    bison160 Registered

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    ok, did that test myself with 100 spec. The bottom is grey base grey alpha. The top is dark grey base w/ dark grey alpha.

    On a sphere that renders perfectly smooth in max, you can see poly structure in rf2. I understand the edges appear rough on the sphere, but the normals that are facing you should appear smooth. I basically made the polys roughly the size of a normal car body. You can make them smoother, but the same issue appears, the edges are just smaller.

    I got word there is help on the way, so hopefully we've provided enough info to help.

    If there is any other tests that need run, let me know and Ill see what I can do.
    View attachment 1047

    Here is the models rendered with max scanline render standard material with same maps
    View attachment 1051
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 6, 2012
  11. D1Racer

    D1Racer Registered

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    Yep, after bumping my spec up to 100, and looking closely at my model I did get the same, just in a different spot. I got mine on the rear quarterpanel on not so sharp a curve, but nothing on the front quarterpanel with the sharper curve. That's why I didn't spot it before, I was looking at the same spot it was happening for you.

    It's not a great angle, but you can definitly see the poly shapes on the rear quarter
    View attachment 1055
     
  12. fanlebowski

    fanlebowski Registered

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    ok, maybe someone from isi will say if it's a known issue or not.
     
  13. toebee

    toebee Registered

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    Its more pronounced the darker you make the car. I don't have a problem with red cars either.
     
  14. mianiak

    mianiak Registered

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    Just to make sure here, you guys are doing this with HDR off yes?
    Also try making the alpha channel on the bump map 50% grey and make the rgb layer a solid colour before you convert it to a normal map. Making sure you use A8 L8 for the dds.
     
  15. bison160

    bison160 Registered

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    HDR is off. It does the same thing in RF1 which doesnt even have HDR. And the normal map doesnt affect it. It does it whether you have a normal map or not.
     
  16. mianiak

    mianiak Registered

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    Ok, anyway, I would not be be going to a specular power of 100, that's way over the top. Between 1 and 15 would be the most/least you would want to go. start at 5 or 6, then tweak it. DId any of you guys see the post I made in another thread? (I know you saw it bison)
    http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/3523-Car-Body-Specular-Settings?p=43182&viewfull=1#post43182

    It is possible to get it right, you need to use a combination of things, diffuse and alpha (and reflection), spec and bump map. Its not as easy as rf1 to tune this, but it is possible, I struggled a lot with it myself at the start, but in time it came to me. Just set it up to start like I said in my other post, and do small tweaks and only tweak one thing at a time, then go check it.

    The other thing it could be is UV mapping, it is possible that if your uv verts are unwelded that the cube map/reflections could be causing things to go wrong. What happens when you use, just bump specular map t1?
     
  17. bison160

    bison160 Registered

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    Thanks for the help mianiak, and your settings work fine, but ive done enought tests to be confident this is a deeper issue. Either with shaders themselves, or the way the model smoothing is being done. With low specular powers like 5 or 6 like you suggest, it looks like its a cloudy day with no direct sunlight and I just don't think that is a very realistic look compared to some of the other games out there right now. The only way to get these shaders to look closer to realistic is to put the spec power as high as it will go, I'd go higher if you could but were stuck at 100. However, when you do that the smoothing issue's with the models show up. Like I said, these same models can look smooth in other graphics engines. There is just no way a sphere should look like it does in the engine.

    I have been experimenting with created shaders in rf1 and we have found something that at least hides the issue and looks better. It would be nice if one of the guys from ISI would step in and see if the real issue can be adressed.
     
  18. fanlebowski

    fanlebowski Registered

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    +1. moreover there is the same issue on ISI's cars. you can see it on 2 fr 3.5, who have some black areas.
     
  19. toebee

    toebee Registered

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    I found a shader that works the way you would expect. Cub Map Specular Map T1. The downside is there isn't an option for the damage layer. Also the cubemap is controlled by the blend % instead of the alpha channel. This is with a spec power of 100. Black and white cars also have the same reflections without the need off unique alpha channels.
     

    Attached Files:

  20. fanlebowski

    fanlebowski Registered

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    this is a possibility, but the problem is you can't control the reflection. it's not a big deal on a stock car ... car^^ but can be more important on an open wheel :(
     

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