Sound Engine infos

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Fonsecker, Oct 7, 2010.

  1. Carbonfibre

    Carbonfibre Registered

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    I think you people are attributing far too much importance on this. :)

    The biggest point of dynamic range in game audio is to make sure quiet sounds can be heard at low volume. It is a improvement that absolutely should be implemented as it should actively normalize volume levels by intelligently ramping up different sounds according to their real life decibel output in ratio to other sounds.

    However, saying dynamic range (of rather, lack of dynamic range) helping to make engines sound more powerful by increasing the volume difference between idle and high revs is just flawed thinking in my opinion.
    Have it as an option if you must, but the proper idea and industry standard, is to build audio that still works on small speakers. Following DICE's principles on this matter would be the best option regarding the do's and do not's of audio design, as they are pretty much the genre leading for game audio in FPS.

    For better engine sounds, I think the effort should be spent on improving the essence of torque and shifting primarily. That would make a far greater difference than what dynamic range ever could.

    I have analogy; strike a power chord (pun intended) on an electric guitar, sounds awesome! Now turn the volume off, strike a power chord again and then turn the volume back up. - That's metaphorically what I think is wrong with most engine sounds in sims. Audio samples that have the power and volume, but the beginning is missing or smoothed over by the stitching together of those loops.

    More specifically now, I believe the sound engine needs to address what happens to sound during the transference of torque and alter the audio samples with a system that synthesizes real life recordings. Once that can happen, we can start playing around with other components like transmission whine and spilt engine noise into exhaust and intake using modifiable algorithms that process audio samples on the game engine side. As we all know, the key to solving bad external sound has a lot to do with intake and exhaust sounds. :eek:

    So synthesizers could take a lot of the burden of recording engines as well as reducing memory footprint, however I also know it will never be a great as professionally recorded car sounds on rolling roads. But hey, I think it's worth thinking about as rFactor is all about building the framework for something bigger. ;)
     
  2. Gold

    Gold Registered

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    I agree with both of you. All I am saying is that the primary difference between game and real life (and with real life I don't mean a video recording (as that is also normalised), but real life standing by a track) is that in real life there is a considerable decibel difference between rpm's.

    I understand that we must never force a sim to use real life dynamics as for 85% of people the lower volume sounds will become too faint, so normalising is a must as you say Carbonfibre, all I am saying is that there should be an option for non (or less) normalised sound.

    So that people with the right rig have a much closer approximation of the dynamics (or range) of decibels to real life than not, should they choose to.

    That, in my opinion, will be a serious paradigm shift for how real the world of sim racing will feel.


    @Carbonfibre: I agree with your chord example. There are video's on youtube of a racing car revving where you go O MY LORD. Something about the sound echoing off far away grandstands, etc. So you are right about sound transitioning but I would add echos and reverberation to that, and those two things are in the realm of the creators of the official sound system as opposed to mod makers.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 21, 2011
  3. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    Yes. But you have to have sound layer of mod prepared correctly with hi-dynamic characteristic. After that, there may be an option to compress output for some part of audience.
    unfortunately, I don't think so, there will be modding teams which will be able to prepare the base.
     
  4. Niels_at_home

    Niels_at_home Registered

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    I've recently made a car with some ~30dB difference between idle and full blast top speed. I also had an idea!

    It should be possible to use the volume sliders in the rfactor menu as a sort of dynamic range control.

    If you set the in game engine and sound effects volume to 20% for example. Then tweak the SFX so that this gives you a large dynamic range. That might mean you use volume multipliers much greater than 1.0 just to get it loud enough at 'full blast'.

    I test this this very simply by having an audio program record 'what you hear'. Then I set the engine and wind noise multipliers to 100 (!) Of course this means that any sound is 'max volume' in rFactor. I look at the recorded WAV and say this is -3dB. That means the loudest rFactor noise possible is -3dB in the sound recorder software.

    I now want to achieve this -3dB recording, with the rFactor volume sliders at 20% and adjusted SFX settings, but ONLY when going full speed / full throttle. You might end up with something like:

    engine sound multipliers = 4
    playerEngineVolumeMinimum=0.05
    playerEngineVolumeThrottleFraction=0.15
    playerEngineVolumeRevFraction=0.8

    Now if you set the game volumes to 20%, you get a large dynamic range, with the sound maxing out only at high speeds. A 30dB range is great for headphones without making your ears bleed.

    With the game volumes at 100%, the sound will max out at much lower speeds and throttle positions, which is great for those who think the average hit album is such a high quality recording.. ;) (or you play rFactor on a laptop..)

    If we ever do the Corvette Zr1 then I'll see what I can do here..
     
  5. Cavallino

    Cavallino Registered

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    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 3, 2011
  6. Cavallino

    Cavallino Registered

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  7. Carbonfibre

    Carbonfibre Registered

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    I just wanted to duplicate the following posts here:

    I think these are understated issues that might get overlooked, but they are important and need addressing for rF2.

    We all know the 787b right? No sim truly simulates the idle noise does it? even in GT5, It's a sound loop. If individual engine cylinders (and rotatory engines) were truly being simulated in the first place, tying it to the sound engine should be simple. - That sort of sound improvement would be a leap from where we are now. However, I guess you could also cheat the system and animate the tachometer better, whatever gives immersion.


    rF2 Go-kart upgrade? ;)
     
  8. Cavallino

    Cavallino Registered

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    2011

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0CJcLToCl0
     
  9. Thinlane.T

    Thinlane.T Registered

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    I agree on all your points. To my view (given that only a minority do have a advanced simulator to simulate g-forces) the sounds are one of the most important parts to experience the driving of a sim. It should like what you experience on the track (besides the rumbling of your stomach when a big V8 is coming by). To all what is said I have add one to it. It should be the wind effects. Not the wind experiencing on board, but more when the wind pushing the sounds of the car away or pulling it towards you.

    @ Niels : Could you make a recording from your setup?
     
  10. Carbonfibre

    Carbonfibre Registered

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  11. Pandamasque

    Pandamasque Registered

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    For some reason SimBin's physics + sharpish tire sounds + head movement makes it feel like earth's gravity is x10, as if the car is struggling to lose traction.
     
  12. Pandamasque

    Pandamasque Registered

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    When the tire wear/deformation videos first came the sound samples seemed very familiar so I automatically thought there's nothing new in that build. But I've just listened carefully to this in my headphones and... well, good news! (to me anyway). I can hear car sound reflected off the objects (walls, buildings etc). The distance to the objects seems to directly influence the amount of reflected sound that's audible.
     
  13. 88mphTim

    88mphTim Staff Member

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    I'm not sure what stage things were at, when, but yes. You are hearing what you think you are.

    Gjon has mentioned going at the sound stuff again, so although there are improvements, he may plan to improve further. Although no video you have seen yet is accurate to current state.
     
  14. Flaux

    Flaux Registered

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    I have another thing that hasn't been mentioned here, I guess.

    Where is the bottleneck when it comes to the number of sounds ingame? 32 are just nothing. Watch a field of 30 cars and you can only hear 1 sound from every car... no tranny, shift, tire - sounds at all. Is it my Soundcard or the engine that isn't capable of more...

    My soundcard can handle 48 hw-sounds. When I edit the plr to get more than 32 sounds the engine sounds in most mods get distorted, and even set to 64 there aren't to much more sounds to here at the same time. Kills every immersion if you ask me.

    On a sidenote, why is the development on soundcards so slow?
     
  15. peterchen

    peterchen Registered

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    Hi all!
    I am creating sounds too and know the good and the bad of the rF1 sound engine.
    ANd there are only a few bad´s!

    I wondered all the time I read this thread when someone of you will explore the in-game-soundcontrollers! LOL
    And Niels, finally you did! Grats!

    Anyway I agree to the call for an indipendent extern-sound / intern-sound adjustment possibility. A must!

    And, like said the overall immerse in sound experience lais at >90% at the sample you use.
    In rF1 are very well soundings possible! (And sometimes realized)

    The other alternative is indeed the in-game soundprocessing like Carbonfibre proposed to.
    This would be a consequently step to the future, but you have to realize that then you need min. 1 extra core
    just for the sounds! So 110% no option for rF2 and I have my doubts that we will ever see this.
    Greets,
    Pete
     
  16. Domagoj Lovric

    Domagoj Lovric Registered

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  17. Guy Moulton

    Guy Moulton Registered

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    Well, we have the C6r- what do you think, Niels? I'm going right now to try this out- your post makes a lot of sense and explains why my car at idle is almost the same volume as when it is screaming down the pit straight at 6000 RPM.
     

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