So hows AC for you?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Nazirull Safry Paijo, Nov 25, 2013.

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  1. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    After some more laps with the little open wheeler on mugello, i tend to say there is still to much friction, even it makes fun to drive, anything is holding me on the surface, as if the gravity on the south was much greater than usually, whereas it sometimes leaves the impression it is to low beyond the atlantic on the west.

    Using the car with zero downforce or level 1, but still glued feeling. I perceive it as if the friction effect is too large. It feels like an eraser on glass with standard downforce settings.
     
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  2. Johannes Rojola

    Johannes Rojola Registered

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    So you'd thought, people are open to do whatever seemingly stupid and tedious things when it comes to gaming. But I agree about the niche value of it yes. Then again reading comments of many simulator hobbyist, they don't even want their product to be opened more into outside markets even when it does not have to come through compromises.
     
  3. alpha-bravo

    alpha-bravo Registered

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    I'm surprised ^-^ No comments about the MP4 in AC ?
    This is the first car I really enjoy to drive in AC.
    I've played arround with the ffb settings and the best choice for me with the MP4 is to reduce the ingame damping to between 0 - 5% for my csr-e ingame ffb force to 65% street and ffb effects to 120 or higher and slide effects to arround 30 %.
    Force on the wheel 100% shock to 70-80% all other to off.
    To use the words of (not sure but I think it was spinelli) with this car I can dance on the limit of grip and slip.
    In the car setup I've customized the tyre pressure, chamber and toe only a little bit and I used the semi slick.

    I like the feeling of weight transfer and car rolling. After I noticed how the electronic diff works it makes really fun to drive with this car.
    In my opinion this car feels very natural and not to easy to drive in any case complete different to my first expirience with the other car's with the previous build.

    Would like to know if anyone can share my expirience.

    Additional and off topic :
    In the last days I've done some night races with a little bit rain and important with
    Tosch's HDR Profiles for build 342. With this build and Tosch's HDR Profile it is now possible to race with HDR enabled during the transition from night to day and all works well. It was a fantastic expirience.
    Hope to see some Servers with for example ISI or URD GT's and Day to Night transition.
     
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  4. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    Speed1 -yes they are totally glued to the track to the point I feel like falling asleep when trying them, I have no idea how anyone likes them, I wonder if the AC software translates the physics differently depending on hardware setups? Because there is such different / strong opposite views about cars in AC that I do wonder if there are more reason present.

    Alpha
    Agreed, The McLaren is the 1st AC car I like although I don't usually go for closed top cars, but now at least AC is not a completely wasted purchase for me
     
  5. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    The last update improves it dramatically for me but somehow it is me still not convincing enough, altough everything else seems to develope fine and fun to drive, it still is, just limited and after a certain time it bores me.
     
  6. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Yup the Mac is the first car that seems like Kunos is trying to make it in proper sim form. It still exhibits some typical AC physics traits, but overall it is atleast in the right direction.

    I have had this secret feeling that Kunos made the first cars real "video game-ish" and sort of "simcade" in order to attract a huge audience and get them in the game without being frustrated and feel familiar with the handling, then, maybe, slowly, slowly, build by build, add more complexity to the driving model to make it more proper sim ala NK Pro/IRacing/RFactor so that the non-hardcore fans slowly transition over to these physics without barely realizing it?

    1. Get lots of attention from any car lover from beautiful graphics pictures.

    2. Keep going on and on and on with the pictures while announcing more and more car brands and models to the public.

    3. Keep posting more and more beautiful pictures to keep the attention, hype, word of mouth, etc about the product going while always announcing licenses and showing pictures of some of the coolest, "hottest" road cars in the world (sadly it's road cars, graphics, and to a certain extent, "drift factor" that sells).

    4. Now, once you have almost every single car lover in the world interested (that's car lover, not just passionate racecar driver wanna bes, but just general car lovers, which is obviously a much, much larger group of people) you have humongous sales when it finally comes out because almost every person that likes cars (not just hardcore racing driver wanna bes) buy the product because it hits the big 3 selling points 1. Hot road-cars 2. Beautiful graphics 3. Drift-factor/comfortable and accesseable overall control of the vehicles without being overly arcade.

    4. Now that you have such a humungous group of people lured into the game, talking about it, posting cool replay tv cam videos showing awesome drifts and very nice physics-to-graphics graphics, now you can slowly start making the handling dynamics slightly more and more accurate/complex/difficult (only difficult when/where it's supposed to be, not difficult just for the sake of being difficult). Now that you already have that huge user base growing, and all the buzz around due to 1. Hot cars 2. Beautiful graphics 3. Familiar and non-frustrating control, now you don't have to worry so much about sales and bad reviews and stuff because you already have all the hype and buzz from so many different groups of people that now you can slowly start making the physics/handling dynamics more and more proper "true" sim.

    That's just my feeling and how I would do it if I was trying to achieve a massively successful (in terms of sales) sim. You use all the "cool" things to lure every single car lover in the world in. Graphics, hot cars and licenses, beautiful replays, drifts, and keep pumping that out over a few year period to generate HUGE product awareness. Then bam, product release date comes and you are only second place, to the new Call of Duty game, ON THE ENTIRE STEAM MARKET.

    Job done!

    From then on, little physics things that make the cars more real, less real, more difficult, more easy, more accurate, more inaccurate, more sim, more arcade, etc. etc. won't matter AT ALL because it's too late, all the sales success, and buzz and hype, and YouTube videos, etc. etc. have done their jobs and the humungous user/fan base has already, by far and large, been established.
     
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  7. Gonzas

    Gonzas Registered

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    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
  8. geg

    geg Registered

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    pathetic
     
  9. Valter Cardoso

    Valter Cardoso Registered

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    Agree.
     
  10. liebestod

    liebestod Registered

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    There's zero tangible evidence that KS was going for the console "sim" verisimilitude-over-simulation approach. It would be contrary to everything they've ever said, and to their mission as a professional sim studio.
     
  11. osella

    osella Registered

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    It sounds like a conspiration theory a bit but I wouldn't disregard it completely. It is not impossible IMO; if I was leading development of my own sim, I would actually do it exactly like that! Make early access versions slightly more arcade and then inconspicuously make it more realistic each month :D. This way the playerbase would be much bigger = bigger profits and whole playerbase is happier because there are more online players.

    Don't think we'll ever have real proof how Kunos does it.
     
  12. Empty Box

    Empty Box Registered

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    It's funny, the 12C is easily the hardest car to drive now and at the same time the 458 certainly got less stable. The 12C is what I'd expect (Slide Rule Supercar), the 458 is much the same (Supercar Perfected). Still say it needs GM so we could get a ZR1 / C7 Z06!

    It's almost, kind like... dare I say it... it's some sort of work in progress early access not finished type of thing, perhaps. Not sure why it needs to be made into a conspiracy theory, it's like saying rF2's original version intentionally looked like trash so that way people would deliberately not buy it. Physics flaws here (and yup, they exist) are designed to keep people away or keep them here, as if intentionally done. Oooooooooooookay.

    I spose EA also launched BF4 in it's terrible state it was so they could seal the deal on another "worst company out there" award as well.

    It's silly. One set of "flaws" better suits your ideal, but flaws are to be fixed if they can be.

    I wonder if people will realize that not everyone wants race cars, and honestly, race cars are boring as hell unless actually racing other people. While a GTE 458 or GT3 12C certainly will be awesome, the road car versions of either is almost certainly significantly more appealing to the wider audience. Need proof? Play Forza or GT online - the race cars are the minority, the street cars are the majority, and not just because of sheer car count. You don't powerslide race cars, you don't scandavian flick everything for the hell of it and putting the power down is significantly easier. You are kidding yourself if you don't think a decent portion of the Forza / GT crowd are plenty capable of driving any sim out there just as "we" do, because we are talking about Forza / GT - not Need for Speed. It's not like we're comparing a spatula to a golf club here, more like a fork to a spork.

    Why do you think people like the Clio here? It's piss easy to drive and ultra flickable. By race car standards, it's also one of the tamest cars we have here. I wonder why.
     
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  13. Golanv

    Golanv Registered

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    This ridiculous notion that when driving in a sim is hard, its closer to realism, is totally idiotic. Driving a car is not hard, not a DTM, GT, or street cars.

    Reason why MP4-12c is a handfull to drive fast, is because it was designed to be driven with electronics giving you aid, and when the option to turn them off became available at the end of 2012, when the power output was also increased and the model name was shortened to mere 12c, you could experience how does it handle without any help.

    Since the modern age of infinite knowledge through internet, for all of us mere mortals, finding out how vehicle of anykind is to drive can be digged up from the belly of the beast so easily, that the guessing game is no longer necessary. Especially super cars and race cars have bundles of different kinds of reviews in the hands of different kinds of drivers.
    For starters I'll throw couple of links that the most lazy knowledge hungry individuals can get a headstart:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mKB-8WUB5k
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyPLNtdqpJ8

    Use your minds.... and google, and Maybe we can start to make little more sense around here.
     
  14. o0thx11380o

    o0thx11380o Registered

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    Sounds like an excellent master plan to me! :)
     
  15. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    ??? What are you freaking out about Empty Box?

    Racecars are boring as hell unless you are racing other people??

    That comment truly and utterly leaves me speechless...If you need to be doing scandinavian flicks and powerslides to have enjoyment and satisfaction then that is totally cool, that stuff is fun and cool for sure :). But quite frankly that is not what racing a car is about (unless you're forced to do it for competitive reasons like for example the scandinavian flick, on certain cars/setups, on certain corners). Racing a car is about pushing a vehicle, and yourself, as hard as you can to get the fastest lap time you can get out of it. Over and over, and finding ways to gain a tenth here, learning how to use just a tiny but of slip to get the car rotated just perfectly there, etc etc. It's not about "wowwwww heyyyyyy loooook at me slide guys, woowwwww". That is fun stuff we all love, but that has nothing to do with the sport, the "art" of, autoracing.

    So maybe YOU get bored if the car is not going all sideways and haywire, that's cool, but that just means that you personally aren't a fan of, or get much enjoyment, out of pure auto racing. That is totally cool, as most people arent, like I said most people are fans of cool cars and "driving them fast", and having fun with them, rather than being actual fans/wanna bes of actual autoracing.

    So please don't come on here (or any simracing forum for that matter) and start shouting to everyone how racing cars are boring as hell, because I find drifting and just driving around doing pointless slides boring after a while, but I don't go on drift forums shouting "drifting is for loosers, learn how to extract the quickest out of a car and be devastatingly fast with that speed and destroy your opponents, and never give up looking for more ways to find time, not only out of the car, but out of yourself as well etc. etc. ". Everyone has their own preferences, so be a little respectful man.

    The fact that you make so many youtube videos talking about and showing racing led me (and i'm sure many others) to the impression that you were a passionate autosport/autosport simulation fan, rather than just your typical car game player that is a "I, like almost every other guy on this planet, loves cool hot cars and driving them fast and sliding around/having fun in them" kind of guy. Racing sims arent specificlly tailored to that environment. They are meant to purely simulate, as accurately as possible, the vehicle dynamics of cars when being driven in an extremely high-performamce environment, and due to no sim (not even $30 million professional sims) being perfect, sometimes the "I just want to drive around and have a little fun" driving dynamics may suffer a bit (eg. A certain car, in a certain situation, in a certain condition, may be slightly too tricky than it should, especially for some casual "fun" driving).

    Please stop shouting this sucks, thst sucks, maybe it's boring for you but not for fans of pure autosport. Show some maturity in getting your points across, you do in your yoytube videos so maybe try to keeping that attitude when posting, especially when you say something as controversial as "racing cars are boring as hell" on the forum of a video game that simulates the vehicle dynamics of vehicles when being pushed as hard as they can around a series of strights and corners, AKA RACING. Not drifting, not having fun sliding at 30 degrees, not going around the Parabolica at Monza doing scandinavian flicks, but RACING.
     
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  16. Empty Box

    Empty Box Registered

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    Man you are hilarious Spinelli. Take one thing and crank it to 11.

    You know dang well what I'm getting at.

    Face it, people like street cars. Reaching out to that audience is what they are aiming for, it has approximately zero to do with "dumbing things down" for a certain crowd, something you can't seem to comprehend nor are even willing to attempt to see, your previous post on the "issue" shows this. Race cars are for racing, most people in the wider audience are NOT interested in racing. Heck, just take a look at Youtube and the Forza / GT crowd - you would be thinking that all people do in those games is drift. Why? Because that is what they want. Does some guy being interested in drifting make him less interested in any title out there if it offers what he wants? Drift mods had some popularity in rFactor, did they not? Was rFactor a worse off racing sim because some guys decided going sideways was fun for them?

    Find me another sim that has as much dedication towards road cars. You won't. Most people are not interested in race cars one bit, they are far more fascinated with the "thing I could put in my garage in my dreams" cars. The masses do not give a single flying (bleep) about race cars and never will until they actually get in a race. Am I not allowed to enjoy sideways shenaniganry because I make youtube videos? Am I some how forced to be a sim elitist to talk about things? I'll take street cars over race cars for lapping fun all day, every day. Does that make me crazy? Guess that means I don't care for motorsport though. The more you know moment right there.

    Why do so many of us love historic cars? Massive slip angles, hard to control, a test of car control in a very visual manner and no downforce. Even the Skip is an extension of that same exact formula. Sounds an aweful lot like a street car to me. Street cars are easier to relate to, they are easier to lust for and they will be more popular. No other sim beside LFS has even attempted to seriously give street cars in a serious effort, and that is easily what can make AC what the genre as a whole needs. Everyone benefits and there is no reason we can't have both in the same sim, any sim. Right now though, AC is easily making the most compelling argument for street car fun. Does that mean I must stop racing race cars elsewhere?

    Does iRacing's physics flaws keep me up at night? Simple answer : No, because it is what it is, I can only hope for improvement. I can't make Dave fix everything magically, just as I can't get the guys here to get the systems built up fully meshed as well as I'd like. I can only give feedback and wait, that is all any of us can do.

    Hell, on the subject of my videos - I never said my opinion was the only one, I never claimed to be the best at whatever and if you have actually noticed, my approach to every last sim is different. Have you ever seen me go powersliding in iRacing? How about something more in line to the topic brought up - hooning the Camaro in GSC - a car I've spent a grand total of 45 seconds with. Why? Because there is something else I can do in GSC that I prefer. Does that mean it's unfun? Hell, I even have a bit of Gran Turismo 2 on my channel, and still will say it's the best damn racing game ever created. I don't need to get overly upset about how a new title is not perfect in one last dimension because at the end of the day, we aren't talking about AC / rF2 / iR / GSC being simply Gran Turismo in the physics department. Do I want the perfect sim? Of course, but until then I'll just go ahead and have fun with all of them. Because I can. Why do I enjoy Gran Turismo and Need for Speed? Because I can. Neither of them have any bearing on my thoughts of sim racing because guess what, it's irrelevant.
     
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  17. RodBarker

    RodBarker Registered

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    Its a convo between a competitive guy that competes to win and a guy that has fun , you 2 are both right just not hearing each others perspective , nothing to get hot about just different views .
     
  18. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Like I said, hot road cars, fancy graphics, and cool looking replays sells. Most of the people out there playing car racing video games are car lovers, NOT racing lovers. Most of those "car lovers" would never watch episodes of Peter Windsor analysing racing handling dynamics, but would rather watch and bow down to Chris Harris doing drifts and screaming. Most of those "car lovers" do not watch and follow F1 practice sessions analysing things like all the different behaviours (visible on a camera) of the cars. Most of those "car lovers" could never/would never care to spend 5 minutes analysing and picking apart how they drive just 1 single corner on a track (let alone all of them, and then throwing different cars and setups into the mix). Most "car lovers" would get bored being stuck doing hours and hours/days and days of laps "stuck"/limited to using 1 single car or 1 single track.

    There are games for "car lovers", and there are games for autoracing enthusiasts/wannabes/ex-racers/engineers, etc. The "car lovers" group is a million times larger than pure racing fans (you know what I mean when I say "racing fans", I don't mean just guys who watch racing because it's cool, fun and exciting,).

    All my friends love cars, most of them either own Forza or GT, because they all love cars and racing and driving fast is fun, cool, exciting, whatever, yet, NONE care for racing sims because they are not the type who truly are into the sport like most simracers are AKA the type thst can spend 5 whole minutes just picking apart and talking about driving 1 single corner on a track.

    How many people do you know in Forza, % wise, that love to just sit down and analyse, for 5 minutes, the techniques involved and what they can do, to go through just 1 single corner better? I bet you it's an INSANELY low percentage. Now, ask that same question for guys who heavily play "true-sims"/have "true-sims" as a serious hobby (eg. someone like me who uses it as a direct replacement for their sad, lol, and short real life career) and I bet you the answer is a much, much, MUCH higher %. It's different crowds man.

    So maybe racecars are boring as hell to you, or your average "car lover" but you shouldn't go shouting that on forums of a simulation product that is more technically oriented to the very type of crowd that would never find a racecar boring just because you don't powerslide it and do scandinavian flicks and such. That's all im saying man.

    I'm sorry for getting a little heated up, but man that really made my piss boil lol

    That might be the difference, with respect to others (not saying other people don't want to win), but that might be it all summed up in one paragraph, great post. Both camps are right depending on what they are looking for, what brings them the most enjoyment and sense of satisfaction.

    I start clapping & clenching/pumping my fists in happiness if I can somehow even improve my best record time by 0.050 (without touching setup) in even a stock "vanilla" RFactor 1 car at Toban. It brightens up my whole day, or at least a good few hours of it, and I can finally sleep in peace once I hit that ever so tiny lap-time improvement (yes, really REALLY sad lol, I know). It's not only happiness, but also kind of a relief/stress relief because you are always trying to beat yourself and be better and better. That mix of happines & relief brings sooooooooo much satisfaction to me, and real racers, because this is what it's really about, this is what drives them, it's the foundation of the sport we are simulating in these games. I get this insane satisfaction from IRacing as well as all ISI based sims (except stock unmodified GTR2 which was dumbed down, technically proven as well as it could be felt). In AC, for some reason I still don't get this insane sense of satisfaction that I get from those other sims, and real life, when just pounding around, almost obsessively, lap after lap. It's great fun though, but to me personally still just missing something with regards to the technical aspects of driving it hard over and over and over again. It does seem to have improved in this area, ever so slightly, a lilttle more and more every build, which I find amusing/interesting.

    It's just different crowds looking for different things, which causes conflict/tension, again, sorry for the outburst :).
     
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  19. Domi

    Domi Registered

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    I think you are wrong here. I don't see Forza/GT (I used to play Forza 3 online) players using such cars because they can "powerslide" or "do scandinavian flicks" (in fact the average player don't even know what's this). It's just that supersport cars are more popular than racing cars, that's all.

    Personally I don't see any difference between driving a road car or a racing car, after all what I want is to drive them as fast as possible. I also don't find race cars boring as hell while driving alone, I'd rather spend my time driving an exciting racing car alone than racing with the Pontiac Solstice / Mazda on iRacing against random people. It's a matter of own preferences, and what you say it's your own preference, more than a general thing.
     
  20. DurgeDriven

    DurgeDriven Banned

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    I think it is perception too, some people think we all feel basically the same thing, that may be more likely if we had identical PCs, wheel settings and car setups.

    Picture you get 20 top car reviewers to give opinion on a factory car.

    But first you let them go out and change anything, steering rack, steering wheel, shifter, pedals, brake bias, suspension, gearing and 100 other things to their individual liking.

    Would you buy a car based on their findings or rather they had used identical cars.

    I would wager if 20 of the guys here that know their stuff did a Lan with everything identical , hardware, software , settings etc their views on specific things with a specific car would be closer to each other then in threads like this. ;)
     
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