So difficult to join servers, no info where to download cars/tracks, ridiculous

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Spinelli, Apr 18, 2014.

  1. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    I had 2 people sold on not only rFactor 2, but their first sim ever, well, until we spent 2 hours looking for 4 kart tracks (found 2 within 10 minutes, the remaining 2, well a week later and I still can't find them anywhere).

    1 week later and I still can't join a specific kart server (the only kart server that has more than 1 or 2 players on it during the times I'm available) because I still can't find two of the tracks on their track list EVEN THOUGH I HAVE THE REMAINING 4 or 5 TRACKS THEY LISTED.... UNEBLIEVABLE. So theoretically speaking, if they were to alternate tracks every race then I should be able to play on their server 4 out of every 6 races, or in other words about 66% of the time I try joining I should be able to join as there is a 66% chance of them using a track I own.....Nope not using rF2's system. You don't have even 1 single track, even though you have the remaining tracks on the server AND the one that they happen to be using?? Well too bad, you still can't join.

    Unbelievable.

    Pretty much anytime you want to play online you have to go fishing on all these random websites for car and/or track mods. Even the main websites like rfactorcentral and ISI only have a small portion of tracks. On top of that most servers never setup the car/track auto-download thing (probably to save bandwidth costs), and on top of that there is no room for the server to write down a list of all the links (or at least the websites) of where to download any cars and/or tracks that they are using (besides original rF2 content obviously). There is only the small box with very limited info.

    If I REALLY wanted a track then I wouldn't mind searching for hours, days, weeks for it, but if I am not picky about the track being run on and only want/need a track/tracks because that's what the server is running and I therefore need that track if I want to be racing against other people then this whole "having to have every track" is one of the biggest hassles I've ever encountered just to play a game. THe server even says premiersimracing.com or something like that, so I go there and I can't even find 2 of the tracks that are needed to join. I press autodownload, it suspiciously said sucesfull the first time (which it wasn't because I do not have any of the tracks it apparently downloaded and still can't join") and when the downloading box comes up I see the URL it's attempting to download from, I even check that website, nope, can't find the 2 tracks anywhere. I check ISI's rF2 track forums, their mods section, rfactorcentral, random sim websites, sim-league websites, I even went through some history articles of virtualr and bsimracing, NOTHING.

    Ridiculous....Meanwhile I have 4 out of the 6 tracks on their list and most of the time I was wasting my time looking for tracks they were probably running on the tracks that I did have, I could have been enjoying racing and then simply gotten a mismatch auto-kick the moment it went to one of the tracks I didn't have.

    What a waste of time.

    I wasn't only embarrassed for rF2 but for myself as well. Here I am trying to sell my friends on rF2, constantly telling them how good it is (they both picked rF2 over GSC and AC after trying all 3, offline, for a week) and I can't even go online to the one and only kart server with more than 1 person (they had around 8 or 9 people at the time) just because I couldn't find and download the ENTIRE list of tracks that they will run on. I mean maybe I didn't even want to race for hours on ALL their tracks, maybe I just wanted to do 1 or 2 races. I need to go downloading 4 tracks just to do 1 or 2 races? It's just beyond frustrating.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 18, 2014
  2. Luis Armstrong

    Luis Armstrong Banned

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  3. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    This isn't rf2's fault though. The framework is there. There isn't much ISI can do to "force" people to use the framework properly.

    The reason ISI's very own servers are easy to join is because they actually use the framework as it was intended. There are a lot of very stubborn admins out there that is for damn sure. Making GetMod work is so damn easy now yet people still absolutely refuse to do it. NO IT ISNT TO SAVE BANDWIDTH. THE COMPONENTS _DO NOT_ COME FROM THE RACE SERVER. GetMod uses offsite webhosts for the downloads.

    I don't know how else to educate people on this topic. I've tried very hard to but recently I have taken the attitude to just give up.

    At this point, for our league I have all of our cars and tracks in devmode and the whole team uses SVN to work as a team without overwriting each other's changes. Then when we are all ready for a build I simply run a batch process that builds new MAS files, then builds new rfcmp files, uploads them to our webhost and then automatically registers the new rfcmp's on my GetMod service. The only step I have to do by hand is build a new vmod and then install all the new content and vmod on the server. The whole build process from start to finish is about 5 mins and fully automated.

    I have also released tools to take a public rfcmp file and then swap out the GetMod URL with a simple GUI. There's no need to learn how to use the MAS2 tool or anything like that. I also have a command line tool that takes a rfcmp and then registers it on my service automatically. So no more cutting and pasting the sig, name and URLs. I haven't released this to the public because it is pointless. No one would use it.


    Oh well. Our server runs how they should.

    I also love it when people complain that servers are empty and they talk about how they have tried every car/track combo they can think of and no one wants to join. It probably it's that that they dot want to join but that they try to join but can't. This stupid attitude that admins have that it is the users responsibility to google for all the content is stupid. If they are going to have that attitude then I don't want to hear them complain that their server is empty. I also don't want to hear about how they don't have a way to host their content. Dropbox, OneDrive and a bunch of others are all free.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 18, 2014
  4. TIG_green

    TIG_green Registered

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    I understand both opinions.

    A sim should start like AC and work like rf2.

    I think the problem is that rf2 is operated like no other product. Those who come outside this scenery will find it hard to adapt.

    There is no other way than create a manual with all in it to get things started and then get it everywhere. No other way around it if the system isn't being changed (which isn't needed imo).
     
  5. Denstjiro

    Denstjiro Registered

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    So when not using mods that already have an external link, and when not adding them themselves, they do not come from the raceserver?
     
  6. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    If there isn't a GetMod link it comes from nowhere. If you include the cmp in the rfmod then it will come from the race server but this isn't how it was intended to be used. Personally we need a new extension for vmods. .rfvm would be a good one. Then they should just remove the ability to host a full mod on the server. It doesn't really work anyways because QoS throttles the transfer so much it would take a month to download the whole thing.
     
  7. crz

    crz Registered

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    No, you just can't join the server. The only way the car or track will be downloaded from the raceserver itself is when the content it included in the vmod. You can do that but I don't see the point in it.
     
  8. Woodee

    Woodee Registered

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    Problem is.... most mod makers just put their homepage in that link box, and why shouldn't they? :)

    Maybe in later versions that box needs to be called "GetMod address" ?

    Frustrating as it is.... even with a system like we have now which is workable, but only if used properly. There will always be some people that won't use it as intended and that is where frustration sets in.

    More error checking is needed I reckon to make sure some of the fields when making a mod are mandatory and you can't make it without them. Or perhaps a "test GetMod" and only when it is able to test correctly then it is packaged, otherwise it is left blank.
     
  9. BlaringFiddle5

    BlaringFiddle5 Registered

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    it would be nice if you could serve the mod components from the packages directory on your server if you wanted to - add a checkbox that lets them download the shiz from the packages directory if its there. If server admin doesn't want that happening, he can leave the box unchecked. I would guess that most admins don't know how to serve the mod content, not that they are stubborn or something like that.

    EDIT: oh - and i agree that its dumb that you have to have all the tracks before you can join. Quake 1 solved this problem in 1995. You just get booted from the server if you don't have the next map (or it downloads the map from the server if the server admin made it available). Some will say that the vmods make sure you have the same content the server has (same version of car / track) ... md5 check of mod on server, md5 check of mod on client - match the md5 ... no match - no join. Again - allow the mod to be downloaded from the server if the admin so chooses. problem solved.

    EDIT 2: you could even go so far as to have a box for the admin to specify how many KBps the client can chew up downloading the missing content. If I remember correctly, half-life one (~1999) was the first to have such a setting.

    EDIT 3: screaming that people are doing it wrong and all that sort of nonsense will NOT make for a better online racing experience. If a user attempts to join several servers and can't, he will likely just say screw it and play offline or play some other game online. That much is clear. In fact, it might be to late to shut the barn door, the horse may have already left.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 18, 2014
  10. Denstjiro

    Denstjiro Registered

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    Or both URL and getmod address, then it will also be much easier to check an .rfcmp file to see whether or not it setup for auto-download and modders still can get exposure.

    Its not just this item though, many of rf2 is complex and items/steps are very easily missed.
    2 weeks ago I could not for the live of me get 2 out of 4 layouts of one track to show in the dedicated. turned out it was a simple thing but not obvious.

    I many areas its maybe a case of people not even bothering. and that's not good (enough) imo.
     
  11. ErnieDaOage

    ErnieDaOage Registered

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    and still so many first turn crashers manage to **** up so many races online.
     
  12. Woodee

    Woodee Registered

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    What I think the problem is:

    ISI have said that we have the set of tools they have to create content, this is all well and good because they invented their system so they know what should go where. When the system is presented new to someone not familiar with it then bits are missed and without error checking that things are filled in, then they will slip through the net. There has to be some quality control somewhere when these tools are used by the public.
     
  13. Woodee

    Woodee Registered

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    I think you are right.
     
  14. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    I am a developer myself and make tons of tools for internal use where I know exactly how they need to be used and put very little effort into error checking. I agree that this has a lot to do with it. ISI makes these tools for internal use... then they put minimal effort into making them usable by the public and then release them without any documentation. Then we have to figure out how to use them and learn to work around their bugs. As a developer I can sort of relate. I have made tools for internal use and later try to dress them up and release them and then find all kinds of problems when the public tries to use them. Seriously, it takes more time to account for every possible misuse of an app than it does to code the basic program.

    I have several GetMod related tools that I am using internally that I would like to release but have been really busy on other projects and haven't had a chance to make them more portable and do a little documentation.
     
  15. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    By screaming, I guess you are talking about my ALL CAPS in my other post. I wasn't screaming, was simply trying to bring attention to the fact that components are actually hosted externally and have no impact on the race server. But the fact remains, the experience is bad because servers aren't setup correctly. The question is how do we educate people? I've made a GetMod registration service but it only has about 120 admins that are using it. I think if ISI opened up their own GetMod service to the public and built the registration process into the MAS2 tool that WAY more people would start using it. There also needs to be a way to swap out the GetMod URL on an existing component. I actually wrote a tool to do this. I even released it publicly but the thread is totally overlooked it seems. My tool does a bunch of stuff besides just change URLs. I think I need to write another tool that literally does nothing but swap URLs.
     
  16. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    This would be an easy solution but rF2 already uses a TON of bandwidth. The components are very large, much larger than Quake maps. The HTTP server already does QoS. It isn't configurable though. It dynamically figures out how much bandwidth to use. But because rF2 needs so much bandwidth, there is very little left to download 700MB of content. Although it would be "easy", people would just bitch that rF2 downloads content too slowly. As for admins being stubborn. Trust me, this accounts for probably 50% of them. I have had PMs with admins trying to help them get setup with GetMod and they basically shut me down right away with, "rF1 wasn't this hard". rF1 didn't even download content automatically so I don't see how you could even make a statement like that. Hell I even see admins doing 1.0 vmods over and over with the same name. Who knows how many people they are turning down because they can't be bothered to type: <backspace><backspace>.2 when editing their existing vmod. Yes, it is stubbornness.... a lot of it.
     
  17. BlaringFiddle5

    BlaringFiddle5 Registered

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    Actually I wasn't referring to you specifically. But the sentiment is that you aren't going to be able to educate everyone who wants to start up a server. Some are just not going to understand what you are talking about and would have no hope of setting up their server properly no matter how many tools you release.

    I already provided the solution if ISI is willing to implement. Here it is in outline form:

    1) Allow the download of mod content from the packages directory on the server by optional checkbox in the server setup tool
    a) provide box that allows specifying bandwidth that may be used by each client that is downloading a component.
    2) Allow clients to connect to the server and race with the content they do have. Boot them or download missing content at time content comes up in rotation.
    3) use MD5 check system to confirm that mods match on server and client.
    a) download content if it doesn't match per #1
    4) get rid of vmods.

    Not sure why they didn't do it like this to begin with...
     
  18. BlaringFiddle5

    BlaringFiddle5 Registered

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    or ignorance and an unwillingness to admit ignorance. They are probably men after all - we won't even stop to ask for directions :)

    EDIT: Define a "ton" of bandwidth... if they are using more than 10kbps per client then they are doing it wrong. Never seen an online game that uses more than that...
     
  19. Murtaya

    Murtaya Registered

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    .

    There's a new line in multiplayer.ini this build (or it's the first time I noticed it) it allows you to set the content download speed. Marked experimental currently

    Haha if only they had chosen a different shade to highlight selected items in the mas2 tool eh? :p


    Everytime I come across something that is not entirely to my satisfaction I:

    Remind myself WIP
    Read threads that explain, how to do it, why things are as they are, post a few dumb questions of my own, or make statements only to have them corrected and accept that I might be wrong or not understand and gain from the experience of others. Even if I still disagree with methods I will quickly come to an understanding that if I would like to get the most from this WIP right now, I might just have to come to the mountain.
    Remember that I can fire up more complete simulators and feel a lot less satisfied.

    When ISI state that's it, job done, no more major updates to the sim or the tools provided with it, then I will decide if it's usable, worth the money I paid, and whatnot. I can already tell you it's more usable than other WIPs, more fun than any finished product I have tried. So it's doubtful I will ever post anything screamy about how completely broken it is, but if I felt the need to bitch out once daily about it, I would probably wait until ISI called it gold, final, finished or something otherwise I might get a rep for being unreasonably one track minded, like a broken record, or plain nuts.

    LOL indeed Luis. Same s**t - different day.
     
  20. MJP

    MJP Registered

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    @Murtaya - Not new, it's been in there since B228, I don't run a server though so no idea if it works or not.

    @Whoever - Honestly some of the stuff I see get posted makes me wonder if people actually have used the game and even when they do they seem intent on trying to screw things up rather than working with what's there.
     

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