Simracing is rapidly geting lost into oblivion

mantasisg

mantasisg

Registered
I am just looking around what is happening, and what is happening is not good.

RandomMisunderstanding just recently made clickbait video about how "realism/physics is holding simracing back". I can see how tiktokies gen would agree with such idea. Maybe even low T mature men, with awareness levels of a teen after spending third of their income on OF subscriptions.

GamerTendons keeps on rambling about same things he did eight years ago, still learned nothing, still chasing FFB of his dreams, which probably doesn't exist. maybe should better just hit the gym and satisfy his need for forces there.

Billy Jobrent keeps on being most likeable and fun character, pumping loads of fun content with zero meaning and zero idea. Just happily adapting. I remember his virtue signaling, speaking about how rF2 has best physics, which is true. But as every other true virtuous person, he doesn't use it himself, does he.

GTsectors is another best guy possible, using best content possible of best origins possible. To me he is like a pope of simracing.

Overtake GG (ex racedepartment) shows zero signs of integrity with core values of vehicle simulation. Instead it is just a hive of gamers which want to race in what they can assume is a simulation, but they don't really care if it is. The site is moderated in such way that having a discussion about physics is taboo, and there are lots of clueless people who agree with such policy, because they don't know anything and they want to know less.

ISI, Stefano, Aris, lots of great modders said: "ok, I am out". Alright T.G. is working now with iRacing, but it doesn't mean all of their cars will suddenly start to handle well, they will just find new ways to make them take lots of hours to master.

I see new niche of simracers emerging, usually pretending to be fans of Japanese car scene. I don't know if they are joking, or if they are this way, but they keep on discovering some new funny bits bout how to describe cars handling. I have seen their YT videos about "slip angle" technique. Now some other guy just invented "X" technique. It is honestly so funny, I hope it is a joke. They also understand an absolute zero about car dynamics, tires, aero.... but they seem to get a kick of growing their own little metaverse. Probably based on some comics. It is fun, but they, like every other racing gamer these days wants to pretend they are simracing.

It is all simply harmful to fundamental idea of simulating a car in most realistic way possible - people ruin it.

The only one simulation which I believe in from new ones is LMU. But that will too will quickly go into oblivion if loads of ACC players will start coming in and demanding to gamertendon FFB lol

Where did people go wrong ?

I think overall for car culture it was bad when older Top Gear team was fired. Car culture eventually lost hummour, creativity, ability to be flexible, versatile and simply having character.

The simracing culture will probably never recover from success of AC. Some people, such as influencers, say that we live in gold age of simracing (probably because there is most money in it now). I would say that golden age of simracing was the very first years of AC. And it is a shame that rF2 didn't join it quickly by same time.
 
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This is what new gen of simracers is about to follow

This is interesting take by youtuber @randommisunderstanding. If you pay attention, you can notice how people quit arcades and simcades, for well being, prestige and excitement of simulations. And systematically agitates for simulations to become more like arcades and simcades. Logic is wonderful ?

These are just games right. Yes, even serious simulations are still just games. But ideas and principles are different. Ever since I was not a child anymore, I wanted my game of choice to be a challenge and to benefit me not only with entertainment, but also with meaningful skill and put me in the path of learning. I like simracing because it provides all of that. When I bought my first wheel already in later teens I did not feel like an infant, because I knew there is some maturity in this game genre too. That maturity comes ONLY from pursuit of realism and how it imposes challenge which would be technically just like in real thing (minus immense danger and expenses). It isn't nearly as much romantic as it would be racing in reality, you just race comfortably behind monitor in your cozy room, but the idea is that you could technically jump in real one and adapt to it quickly, because you already know a lot of it thanks to simulation. Another extremely important aspect of simulation to me is that you can experience cars and tracks which otherwise you can just dream about. And you can do that ONLY thanks to pursuit of realism, otherwise you are still just dreaming, except this time it is worse - you don't even practice imagination.

Looks to me like people are leaning to sell their dreams, if someone mildly popular will suggest so. Why would they play chess if they can play checkers and get same kick out of it, because they are cheap and they can't bother to learn extra rules and deal with extra difficulties.

Perhaps the dreams has already been fully sold. I witnessed that in rF2 too. People immensely enjoying 2.8RSR 911 with physics that has almost nothing to do with it. Having an absolute ZERO demand for it to be better than that. Ignoring straight forward facts about anything, because it spoils their "woohoo, haha". A complete total ignorance by all meanings, unless perhaps some funny youtube influencer would suggest otherwise. Do you need to be shown muscles and told what to do ? I can help too.

I used to be breakdancing when I was younger. I used to be proud about it. Till some Australian silly billy completely made fun out of it in olympics lol. Entire cultures gets reduced to trash thanks to millions of clowns ruining it, such as hiphop culture. Remember when interenet used to be a kool place, when forums were awesome ? Great things attract clowns as much as everyone else, unfortunately clowns ruin great things, and conservative gatekeeping made to be not kool by people who were chosen to be moderators of our places where we communicate. It is happenning too with simracing, in near future if you want to look decent, don't tell people that you are simracing, just in case this gets even worse than it is now. If you happen to be in a situation where IRL you can't go camping, go play football, go to bar, go to gym just do whatever that is not runing your posture, better just play gta, fortnite or counter strike, it makes more sense than cramping your house with bulky 5 000$ rig to drive a car that ONLY looks like that car. It all could have been prevented if people were paying respect to reality, instead what they do is compare games to games these days. No wonder topics to stop caring about physics comes up. Makes even better sense when Kunos might try to shift their entire thing into Forza competitor.
 
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(sorry for the bad google translate traduction)​

I don't know what to call people who, when using a "simulation", have 99% of their priorities relative to the realism of physics and the realistic driving experience.

I very rarely watch youtubers, but a French youtuber that I watched very recently said I quote he was a "hardcore Simracer".

So let's use this expression again, knowing that the youtuber concerned is indeed far from being the worst insofar as he really is looking for a realistic driving experience, but he is not at all as categorical too late the need to simulate driving as best as possible and in the most realistic way.

I am clearly part of this category (so in the very short minority of simracers), the people who have literally pissed off s397 since 2016 so that they focuses the majority of the time of improvements of rFactor 2 on physics and driving realism.

I didn't have the same nickname at the time but it doesn't matter.

I notice one thing :

Typically, the place that should gather the most hardcore simracers is in my opinion rFactor 2, personally it seems quite obvious to me, and this since the beginning of rFactor 2 in 2013 or so.

If I'm not mistaken, I've been exclusively on rFactor 2 since 2014. before I was on rfactor 1 mainly, Richard Burns rally and a little bit of gtr1 and gtr2.

Here's what I notice and what I still have a great regret noted :

Even on rFactor 2, I absolutely do not talk about the other much less realistic simulations, the exchanges that I have had since 2014 on the forum and all the reading of posts that I have done, I note that in reality even on rFactor 2 the purists or hardcore simracers were not at all in the majority, with nuances of course.

Probably much more than on any other simulation, but still.

And I think that the popularity of simracing which has only grown has been to the detriment of this absolute search for driving realism, I think that too many people who are not really passionate but have a much too GAMER profile for my taste have invested in simracing.

The best things are :

To stop or almost stop watching youtubers who are almost all quite ignorant to be honest
+
Don't take too much on an emotional level the opinions which are more and more the opinions of (forgive me the expression I don't know what to call these people) simarcaders,
+
Continue to devote yourself to a simulation completely abandoned by others/dev... Because it is still for what you need.

And be careful, don't come and say that rFactor 2 is dead, even if it is completely true obviously on the most points, because the police will come running immediately, time this subject is taboo.
 
pilAUTO said:
(sorry for the bad google translate traduction)​

I don't know what to call people who, when using a "simulation", have 99% of their priorities relative to the realism of physics and the realistic driving experience.

I very rarely watch youtubers, but a French youtuber that I watched very recently said I quote he was a "hardcore Simracer".

So let's use this expression again, knowing that the youtuber concerned is indeed far from being the worst insofar as he really is looking for a realistic driving experience, but he is not at all as categorical too late the need to simulate driving as best as possible and in the most realistic way.

I am clearly part of this category (so in the very short minority of simracers), the people who have literally pissed off s397 since 2016 so that they focuses the majority of the time of improvements of rFactor 2 on physics and driving realism.

I didn't have the same nickname at the time but it doesn't matter.

I notice one thing :

Typically, the place that should gather the most hardcore simracers is in my opinion rFactor 2, personally it seems quite obvious to me, and this since the beginning of rFactor 2 in 2013 or so.

If I'm not mistaken, I've been exclusively on rFactor 2 since 2014. before I was on rfactor 1 mainly, Richard Burns rally and a little bit of gtr1 and gtr2.

Here's what I notice and what I still have a great regret noted :

Even on rFactor 2, I absolutely do not talk about the other much less realistic simulations, the exchanges that I have had since 2014 on the forum and all the reading of posts that I have done, I note that in reality even on rFactor 2 the purists or hardcore simracers were not at all in the majority, with nuances of course.

Probably much more than on any other simulation, but still.

And I think that the popularity of simracing which has only grown has been to the detriment of this absolute search for driving realism, I think that too many people who are not really passionate but have a much too GAMER profile for my taste have invested in simracing.

The best things are :

To stop or almost stop watching youtubers who are almost all quite ignorant to be honest
+
Don't take too much on an emotional level the opinions which are more and more the opinions of (forgive me the expression I don't know what to call these people) simarcaders,
+
Continue to devote yourself to a simulation completely abandoned by others/dev... Because it is still for what you need.

And be careful, don't come and say that rFactor 2 is dead, even if it is completely true obviously on the most points, because the police will come running immediately, time this subject is taboo.
Click to expand...
rF2 is dead, but it's still the best, anything else is a waste of time.
 
Why rF2 has to be dead, if AC1 kept on reaching higher and higher numbers after end of official development ? Please explain me this complete inversion of attitudes. Also how is it dead if you still can do everything with it that you could before it "died".

IF RANDOMMISUNDERSTANDING would have made a video titled "Physics are not important to simracers anymore" he would have been totally correct and honest. Of course since simracers are considered to be people who "simulates racing", and gives zero Fs about how genuine cars are as long as they can effortlessly "wooohoo, haha" with them and be very fast... People who also cares about vehicle dynamics seems to be called "gatekeepers" now, I think, and they causes troubles in discussions! Thank you RD/Ovrtake and Reddit, you are beautifully moderated.

Little flash of hope about people carrying about physics and how realistic cars are, was the moment when there was lots of criticism towards how S397 GT and LMP cars drove, how they needed to be overdriven in strange ways to be fast. And S397 responded with a lot better nuanced physics. AAand then biggest people who criticized just slept on it.... ignored it. Erimin, what is he called ? Niels Hausenkvold?, sorry if I spelled wrong.

Oh... and I forgot about reddit. What on earth is even that site about ? I remember for a short duration of time the simracing sub-reddit was about all sorts of interesting stuff. But it quickly became 90% exposing and advertising rigs and hardware. Could have told then already that the ship is sinking. And it was 2019.

ISI guys probably saw it in 2015-2016. When everyone chose AC. But you have to admit that Kunos did very well. It was a decent sim, it didn't require NASA super computer to run, it had amazing licensed content, various other nice aspects. It made sense to choose AC then. But rF2 definitely got above it by all means around 2021-2022. It only needed to be loved, and it wasn't.

Isn't it interesting how people seemingly has very high standards for everything they want, but they also has rather low standards for everything they choose ? Think about it, so strange.
 
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Most people playing games don’t actually want a sim.

Even a lot of track day racers aren’t interested in the grind of improving their driving. They’re having fun in their sometimes expensive toy, or just impressing their mates.

We have so many options these days, and there are so many people you can choose to watch online (or not); don’t waste your time focusing on things you don’t like.
 
Who cares what youtube "influencers" have to say? AC is overwhelming popular because of the ease of use and the free roam tracks online "No Hesi" or whatever. Not my cup of tea. I prefer racing, not free roam stuff. I have a lot of fun racing in AC.

If I am not mistaken @mantasisg , there was a time when you made wonderful mods for AC. The cream of the crop for that period in time.

Just because rF2 is not popular with the general public is no reason to lose sleep, or stress out. If you enjoy it, that is all that matters. I get a big kick out of AMS1. I have a lot of fun with that game. Is there youtube "influencer" validation of my enjoyment of that game? No. Not at all. Am I going to stop playing it because of that? Absolutely not.

Am I going to stop playing rF2 because I enjoy AMS1? No sir. Am I going to stop enjoying what modders do with rF2 because I play AC? No sir, absolutely not. Each game has something different that keeps me coming back. The only thing wrong with the simracing crowd is the ease of how they are influenced without having a opinion of their own.

If you enjoy it, that is all that matters.
 
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My take on the thread title is we have too many engines with more coming.
For hardcore sim racers imho there should be only one, so good that studios not involved in it's creation will want to use it.
Positives outweigh negatives, R&D, Feedback, Compatibility, list goes on.
If the best minds across studios can't collaborate to make the best engine then what hope is there ?

More then anything I wish I could jump from rF2 to AMS 2 to ACC and get the same connected experience.

I know Fairy Land :D
 
mantasisg said:
how is it dead if you still can do everything with it that you could before it "died"
Click to expand...

I do not agree at all with this specific sentence for very simple reasons.

Obviously a very small number of users of which I am part continue and will always continue to use rFactor 2 for many years probably.

Because indeed, despite a certain number of real defects, the state in which rFactor 2 is currently and satisfactory from my point of view :

- The physics engine is incredible, and as I said it is the first essential point.

- Then, the second essential is that there are several dozen cars relatively different from each other of an excellent physics quality, with all an exciting and singular driving (+ your cars).

Also, rFactor 2 contains a fantastic version of nurburgring with it's layout, and two versions of which that of sVictor has for the moment my preference of the fantastic Targa Florio. It is the 2 circuits that personally satisfies me for the two or three hours that I play per week on average, they are of an incredible technicality, magnificent and exciting.

Then, the graphics, the sound, the UI, the stability of the game, the performance of the game... are of a level more than sufficient for me.

So yes, especially these aspects, from my point of view, for me personally, and for the few rare users, rFactor 2 can be used as is without more development with great pleasure.

And that's what I plan to do for the next years, and a few rare hundreds of users too.

Now that we've seen that the simulation is still as great, and that it works rather very well, with a fairly large car content...

Let's tell the truth, there will never be any more development to create new features, improve existing features, debug a little more, improve the performance a little bit, add even 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 cars per year, even if I never play online, online will never be favored in any way nor solo play for that matter, what about the crucial content licenses, will they be assured for the next few years... the best cars and for example the Nürburgring typically ? nothing is less certain.

The developer has very clearly decided to drop rFactor 2, even though many people wanted an improvement for the next few years of rfactor 2 ("rFactor 2.5") or at worst an rFactor 3 more than rFactor 2 with a WEC license and only doing WEC (= LMU).

Moreover, as we can see, it has now been many months that the number of users of rFactor 2 has been in real free fall.

I may continue to use rFactor 2 exclusively (because IT IS NOT DEAD FOR ME), with a use of lmu (rF2_wec) with pleasure but very little because it does not suit me at the level of 2 or 3% maximum of my time, rFactor 2 may be 100% usable for me especially since I am a very advanced user so I know all the ways to obtain the best results in particular with the weather system for example or with the graphics system and more, I must note that in a certain way rFactor 2 is dead. NO!

I will rephrase :

It is indeed not dead for me although I am very disappointed that it will not go anywhere, but very clearly, it is dead in the eyes of 95% of simracers. (= So in my perception it is dead).

mantasisg said:
But rF2 definitely got above it by all means around 2021-2022
Click to expand...

This is not my point of view either I will explain why :

As for me what I look for in a simulation is 95% realism aspect, the other things that is to say the graphics the sound and everything that follows goes to the background really to the background.

When I stopped rFactor 1 after many years of use, I had the possibility of going to assetto Corsa in particular, wherever I go on the Internet as soon as I call you simulation or other, it sent me back to assetto Corsa everywhere everywhere. It brings the flea to my ear, in general when a simulation is to this point immensely popular it is that there is a problem.

I remember that during the week when I made the transition to rFactor 2, I had to do a lot of research to really find two or three small pieces of information on rFactor 2, it would have discouraged more than one and even all I think.

Or what I chose to do, since I couldn't find any really satisfactory information on the entire web including the web in English, I simply took the opportunity to test the demo...

At the time in the demo there was a single-seater I don't remember which one, and the Corvette C6R GT2 I think.

I was immensely amazed by the physics, it was totally incredible.

So I immediately bought rFactor 2, I use it exclusively from 2014 to now.

I had ended up buying assetto Corsa 1 I think with all the DLC or something like that, a few months later or a year later I don't remember, was that what I had assumed to be the case without proof, it was confirmed to me by my use :

The physics were absolutely not suitable for me.

So no, for me and from my point of view the best simulation is by far since 2014 and rFactor 2, far ahead of assetto Corsa.

On the other hand if you are referring to the fact that rFactor 2 is at the level of other simulations on other aspects namely sound, graphics, user interface... then yes indeed, it is around 2021 I think that rFactor 2 started to be really good everywhere.

Unfortunately, simracers have not followed.



Speaking of the future of rFactor 2 which is quite obscure if we take my points, you are one of the very rare hopes for the future of rFactor 2 :

Cars with really particularly good physics and cars that are all very interesting.

I also must say that my first post was quite categorical and not nuanced enough.

→ There are not on one side absolutely brilliant people who understand everything about physics and who are only interested in physics and people on the other side who are 13 year old kids who just go for graphics and lots of road cars.

Obviously, there is a whole nuance.

Oops big post.o_O
 
@Lazza and @Johnny Speed We are all on same boat, with those influencers as they impact whole simracing community, so I think they have to be treated seriously and can't be ignored because they aren't ignored, they have big audiences.

@Johnny Speed Thank you. Yes AC was very fun then, probably still is now. If I wanted just woohoo and haha, and didn't care about depth of simulation, I would have stayed there. The popularity of AC does add to its attractiveness. I said many times, after 1500-1800hours I felt like AC just too shallow. Actually ACC imrpessed me a lot, but then something amazing happened, people rejected advancements. It was the moment that showed the upgrades can be seen as downgrades by lots of guys. A lot of that has to do how complimenting and easy the handling is, naturally when it becomes very nuanced and with severe cliffs that should be avoided, people can't agree with that. And these cliffs doesn't need to be that steep and nuances that much bumpy and curvy for players who are either rookies or just less talented.

You are incorrect about AMS1 influencers. It has one. And perhaps best one - Neils.

Anyway, you are missing my point. I am not talking about popularity and sims being alive, I am talking about idea of simulation being unpopular and dying, thanks to "super smart and wise" influencers and increased popularity of the genre working against itself.

@8Ball Engines is one thing, other thing is how they are going to be utilised. Stripped down and simplified without average simracer noticing that anything got degraded. Possibly even being happy about downgrades and calling those "great updates". And how it couldn't be an upgrade when your laptimes drops by a second or more, and consistency improves significantly with same level of concentration ? It is just funny how in simulation perfection comes relatively easy if you know what you are doing, it is very hard work to apply all little imperfections and nuances that belong there in reality, so what we see now there is a movement of people which agitates not to bother having those imperfections. The engines themselves will be improving, but the epic cars will probably stay private. Maybe thats natural evolution of things.

And you are right in perfect world of simulation at high level we should be able to jump between simulations without noticing much differences, because there is one real world which they all are supposed to replicate. Of course assuming conditions are same, tires and setups and car models.... Apparently this is not going to become the case.
 
@pilAUTO Yes, maybe if we set condition for being alive as beign actively developed and improving and user base numbers not going lower. Then rF2, unfortunately doesn't pass these conditions.

I think still it should not be declared as dead in any way. Clearly there is no iniciative to keep on upgrading rF2 as there is Lemans track, there are so many LMP and GT cars. If they were upgrading rF2, they would use time which they could spend upgrading LMU, and then many people would not use and buy LMU, because they would get enough in rF2. I think the drop in rF2 userbase numbers comes primarily from people who are up to be focusing on such cars as used in LMU. And thats exactly how it should be. For all other cars and tracks - rF2.
 
Various topics are discussed here, which could be the subject of various debates: realism, sim races/simarcades-influencers, software engines, etc., but I'm going to get straight to the point in the title of the post...
"Sim racing is on the decline." In my case and at home, it's the complete opposite. When RF2 came out, I bought a license and gave another one to a friend. At first, my two brothers and I played; at my friend's house, it was him and his wife (she's a big rally fan).
Now, at home, my brothers, four nephews, and the occasional friend who drops by, sometimes with their kids, use it. There have been Saturday afternoons/evenings where some are playing on the PS, others are playing on their smartphones, and others are in the DJ room with their music. In the simulator, you have to get a ticket because there's a waiting list. They compete with each other in a healthy rivalry to get the fastest lap around the track and with whatever car they're using that day, and each one enjoys it in their own way. Some people just want to try out different tracks; they don't care much about the car, and others want to try out certain types of cars; they don't care much about the track. When they're alone and there's no one to compete with for the fastest laps, and they're relaxed and have time, some dedicate themselves to training on a specific track and car to try to lower their times, and others even race against the AI.
He and his wife started it at my friend's house, as I said before; now their three children use it, along with some of their friends, two or three nephews, and a cousin of theirs with his son, who often visits their house.
As you can see, in my case, with two licenses that we started with, four or five people using, we now have between 15 and 20 people using those licenses. They're users, some more frequent than others, but that doesn't appear on Steam.
The youngest of all started asking to be allowed to drive a year ago, but the adult cockpit doesn't work for him, so we sit him on our laps and while he steers the wheel someone else handles the pedals, which is quite uncomfortable and difficult to coordinate; now he has his own cockpit haha haha and the first thing he asked for was "I want to get a kart, to learn how to drive with the most basic things..." were his exact words when we mounted the steering wheel and pedals in his cockpit for the first time. :)
 
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@mantasisg, I've just read your analysis and I think it's spot on.

Kids nowadays want the biggest prize for cheap, because they're special, as they are told since they are born. Well, not all, but most. Frustration tolerance levels are very low these days, and games nowadays just follow and reinforce this trend. Realism fans are seen as freaks that like it more complicated than it needs to be.

If the product keeps fulfilling its purpose I wouldn't call it dead. Specially when there's no other that can replace it.
 
mantasisg said:
@Lazza and @Johnny Speed

And you are right in perfect world of simulation at high level we should be able to jump between simulations without noticing much differences, because there is one real world which they all are supposed to replicate. Of course assuming conditions are same, tires and setups and car models.... Apparently this is not going to become the case.
Click to expand...


Not perfect world, just close.

If studios keep "perfecting" their own version of tyre physics FFB reality nothing is going to change.

See peeps think when I say that I want everyone to use ISIMotor which is just laughable, 2 decades old with inherent problems.
To wait for another genius like Gjon who's philosophy was the driving experience must be number one when every other engine I have is the polar opposite and concentrated on the bling thing.


Where would other genres of gaming be without those big engines that are constantly developed for decades ?
UNREAL is going on 30 years old ...that's how long it will take to develop universal sim engine if we start now............ :(
 
I have trouble to understand every single post from you, man. It must be because my IQ is sub 70.

I am finding very hard to understand your statement: "If studios keep "perfecting" their own version of tyre physics FFB reality nothing is going to change."

1. Are you assuming they are already perfect ?
2. Do you put "perfect" in quotation marks because you are sarcastic and you realize that studios are only degrading things, and only improvements are associated to what also makes the games cheaper to produce ?
3. Can we use word "simulation" instead of "version of tyre physics FFB reality" ?
4. WTF
5. WTF, honestly, wtf.
 
The main problem is that the modifying of the physics on this game practically requires a certain level of engineering understanding and also having the person doing that capable of knowing how each value on the spreadsheet affects the carhandling.

Id say that only the top 5% of drivers are capable enough to understand the car on a fundamental level that the feedback they give for developing it makes any sense and its extremely rare for a person to have good grasp of car engineering and still be a top 5% driver. we can see this in real life racing. only few drivers are capable of giving adqueate data for the engineers to develop the car.

So where on assetto you can prettymuch copy physicsvalues and slightly fudge them the problem on RF2 is that it requires very accurate and exact data and usually unless you have access to that data all you have to do is to guess the potential values. So this cuts out most of the lower level modders since they simply are not capable to make anything decent since they do not understand the physics behind of it. For example i do not work on the spreadsheet usually but i mostly observe values based on the ingame telemetry and try to match the dimensions of the vehicle as close as possible and whatever data i had available. I would call this "Trial and Error Engineering" This is what was done before computer simulations took over.

So basically it needs a person able to understand the physics spreadsheet.

Secondary problem for this decline is that pre around 2005 cars can be driven in two ways. Either sliding them around like Keke Rosberg or Driving like a robot just like Alain Prost.

Beyond 2005 the old style driving style is not fast since instead of sliding the car around you lose time overdriving it so instead of hovering on the limit you are intentionally underdriving the limit just slightly since the moment you go over the car kills you. That's why cars with driving aids are very popular since they will save you from small mistakes but the problem is that having them makes the car very unstable when pushed. The lower ladder drivers are not able to push the cars to cause this. So you get into situations where olderstyle driver can drive wheels off from a 1980s drivingaidless groundeffect car but if you drive the new car the same way you are within last 5 drivers against people who are no where near the same driving level.

Most of the esports do not run old cars but the newest cars each year and that is where the money is so a driver has two options. either stay in low level casual driving or go esports and grind cars you might not even like to get paid.

This brings another point the modern cars are soulless to drive. all you do is that you execute like a robot to perform. It is not about how fast you dare to push it but calculating like a computer the perfect lines and inputs and executing like AI.

If people are not able to drive anything else than cars laden with driving aids why would they care about simulation quality since the detalied simulation quality gives advatange to the Aliens since they are able to best exploit the simulation and its shortcomings. Also some car physics can be borderline undriveable for lower level drivers so they automatically migrate to cars that are easy to drive under the limit.

When the simulation is simplified this also takes the depth away from it but also usually makes the car easier to drive. People would rather play game where it seems they can drive than a game that makes the driving seem harder. This is why simcades are very popular compared to the higher level of simulation since its easier to pick up than dedicating time to learn the more detailed physics where you need to do deep car setup to get most out of the car.

The main reason why assetto corsa took over is simple. the game did not break apart every time you started the game unlike RF2. i only dealt with it since i have IT techhelp and helpdesk degree so i have more tolerance to fix stuff like that than most people. Once the reputation of the game spread no one is going to touch it since it might just randomly break with a bug when assetto for my own experience works prettymuch flawlessly for most part. I call this "My Struggle With Rfactor 2".

Let's be honest when game has 50% chance on each boot that something breaks and you have to spend 1-4 hours fixing it no one is going to bother with it no matter how good the physics are. Nowadays it works semireliably but it does not matter since once this reputation has been established its very hard to get people back to the game.
 
There is another thing about it too that made me quit racing basically all together.

So since i do not like new cars that basically means that there is no pickup racing what i do not like anyways since i would rather drive on agreed times and make my schedule fit that and practice.

There is couple types of leagues. Ones driven by mostly amateurs and slower drivers and some might have a core of very good drivers either as good or bit below esports drivers.

When a person who is bit below esports people arrives on amateur league what tends to happen is the driver sees if the ruleset is not tight enough anyone of that caliber will basically abuse any potential loophole to ruthlessly dominate the competition. But if the person actually sees that the league could do better if some rules were adjusted. Ie relating to lapped cars and etc. They will resist the suggestions if the driver suggesting that is not from the original amateurs but happens to be the new driver who is clearly faster than the people who raced there before.

No matter how the faster driver tries to help the league to make racing easier for everyone the excuse they say is that drivers "Fast driver priviledge" and that how they dont know how its to be a slow driver.

The only problem is that everyone starts from somewhere and was not fast driver when they started but worked themself to be better and put alot of work to master the art of driving and people talk to the person like they dont know how it is to be slow.

This is basically jealousy or pure laziness from the person. Why would person get hatred for simply putting the time and dedication to become fast? If on top of that person had to learn to drive again after injury with gamepad and pedals due to injuring their shoulder and having to learn to drive without simwheel and relying on a thumbstick to steer what already bleeds 0.5-1 seconds per lap just to keep driving without screaming in pain.

The only real reason to be slow is that person has real physical handicaps when it comes to racing or is simply too old. Like in real racing any of these will reduce the speed around the track. It's purely a matter of reaction times and physical fitness and experience. This is going to happen to anyone who is fast now or in the future. Eventually they are not able to compete with the younger people due to aging.

I have done some self analysis on this since 2020 and generally unlike in real racing it seems you can keep yourself very fast until around 55-65 mainly due to accumulated experience and mastery of skill covering over the degradation of reaction speed and physical ability.

Still if someone lacks the ability does not mean they are excused to bad driving manners. The least people can do is atleast make sure that they are predictable but the problem is that most leagues are not willing to push people to improve when they clearly still can.

Then there are leagues where the admin weaponises the stewards to make sure the admin always wins and each time someone can challenge them they slap arbitary penalties for minor infractions just because they dont want to lose and keep the image of being fast.

So basically there would be 3 drivers on equal points for last race and the admin retroactively slaps a penalty on one of the drivers in a way that benefits the admin most and gets the title just because they were afraid someone would beat them.

When this kind of stuff seems to be a pattern of a league like that and people just accept it as a part of the game.

Then there is the third option, setting your own league and hoping you did not accidentally pick wrong cars that are too hard to drive or that the race is too long for most people. Generally people do not like more than 50% real F1 distance. 100% already cuts most people out of it. Most people are also deathly allergic to any types of rules trying to clean up the racing or even having 15 minute warm up so people can have toilet breaks before a long race or warmup the racefuel car since slower people think such warmup benefits the faster drivers when its the slower driver who benefits since the faster driver has most likely already practiced the car with said load before the raceday during the week leading up to the race.

I have done that in the past and its pretty ungrateful job. You are at the whim of the people that do they feel like racing or not.

Honestly if simracing actually dies i would not cry over it at all. It is what it deserves.
 
mantasisg said:
I have trouble to understand every single post from you, man. It must be because my IQ is sub 70.

I am finding very hard to understand your statement: "If studios keep "perfecting" their own version of tyre physics FFB reality nothing is going to change."

1. Are you assuming they are already perfect ?
2. Do you put "perfect" in quotation marks because you are sarcastic and you realize that studios are only degrading things, and only improvements are associated to what also makes the games cheaper to produce ?
3. Can we use word "simulation" instead of "version of tyre physics FFB reality" ?
4. WTF
5. WTF, honestly, wtf.
Click to expand...

Shakes head lol

"Perfect" is not perfect
By perfecting I mean updating, upgrading, evolving of their engine, I meant nothing more certainly nothing is perfect ?

If we just keep this up for another 20 years we have 8 sims all feel different to drive identical car.
That is fantasy by it's very nature so let the arcade sims do that if they want.
We should have, no we need a hardcore engine that is better then all the rest.

But really this is again as I said before above . it's Fairy Land ?

8Ball said:
I know Fairy Land :D
Click to expand...

This won't happen in my lifetime because your thread title says it all.
250,000 people subscribe to a GT7 channel to watch some one else drive while Gjon and ISI go broke.

Yes mate ......WTF


"..... and Lord, if I ever subscribe to a uboob channel or any other social entity other then sim sites, please hit me with a Mack truck "
 
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