Shadows and Pop Up

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by slimsymeat, Nov 26, 2019.

  1. slimsymeat

    slimsymeat Registered

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    Why do we still have horrible pop up and bad shadow lod changes that pop in and out. Even the new content does this. Take the Porsche Cup 2018. Following the car in front you see a lovely sharp shadow under the rear spoiler, it then becomes blurry after that just disappears. Get closer there it is with no transition just pops back in. The replays show this again, it's there and then gone. Also another example. The new Nurburgring GP Circuit, after the Warsteiner coming down the hill, I can see the stand then it has seats, there's also and ambulance poping in and some buildings. Today's hardware is more than capable and there is no need to make these cuts for performance. LOD Mulitlplier in the CAM file could be added as adjustable in the upgrades for cars. Problem solved, quick fix or just adjust the values for the relevant models.
     
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  2. slimsymeat

    slimsymeat Registered

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    This is an example, the crane shadow just pops in when right ontop off it. rfactor2a.jpg rfactor2b.jpg
     
  3. Richard729

    Richard729 Registered

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    Unfortunately, all the sims I've tried (rFactor 2, Automobilista, Assetto Corsa and Project Cars 1+2) have problems with shadows and object pop ups, but rFactor 2 probably has the most annoying shadow problems.
    +1
    I don't know whether this would be technically possible, but I'd like to see two sliders in rf2's options:
    1. Shadow Quality - Just the amount of detail in shadows e.g. the leaf detail in tree shadows.
    2. Shadow Distance - so the annoying shadow pop up could be eliminated.

    These options would give users more control of shadows to suit their GPU/CPU.

    My personal preference would be:
    Low/medium Shadow Quality to reduce the flickering of leaf shadows.
    High/Ultra Shadow Distance to eliminate pop ups.
     
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  4. Travis

    Travis Registered

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    This has been an issue with rF2 since day one, along with reflections that are low res and update at 30fps. I'm sure I read the reflections were being looked at by S397 in one of the many roadmaps.

    FWIW, pCARS and pCARS 2 has a shadow rendering issue and pC2 is often as bad as rF2. ACC has less shadow issues but it has other larger graphical issues (e.g. mirrors that eat frame rates, poor AA). From what I've experiences, any modern sim with a 24 hour cycle has shadow issues.

    I recall Tim Weatley stating there was little they could do to fix the issue and ISI were thinking of reducing the shadow options to only a few options.

    So called 'baked in' shadows are one option but obviously they won't be dynamic.
     
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  5. Richard729

    Richard729 Registered

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    Travis - Thanks very much for the detailed info.

    pCARS 2
    Yes - horrible shadows, especially in the trees.
     
  6. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Yeah, reflections were definitely mentioned, that wasn't a popular optimization.

    The flickering detailed shadows were much worse originally in rF2, AA has helped somewhat but they also changed the shadow rendering method to a more modern one that performs better but also gives 'blurrier' distant shadows. A number of images at the time showed other games (not just driving) had some same remaining issues as rF2.

    Driving games do tend to highlight pop-in and distant shadow issues, many other types of games have the action closer (or artificially zoomed in via scopes etc) and you don't notice the issues.

    That may (or not) have been before they changed the shadow method. But anyway, if it were easy to fix they'd do it.
     
  7. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Does reflections get updated at 30fps in rF2 ? That is pretty high actually.

    Part of rF2 shadows problem is due to shadows being super sharp edged and super dar. Those two things just simply highlights the issues of drawing distances and more... basically problems enhance each other. I play rF2 with low shadow settings.

    Speaking of that crane. The artist could have simply disabled shadows of this object and the problem would be solved. I was surprised to find that cardboard people cast shadows in one of my tests, it was weird.

    That does happen because trees are 3D there and casts shadows, due to that reason most games with 3D trees look worse than with 2D or X or Y geometry trees in many situations. Perhaps raytracing would help, but why just not use invisible billboarding shadow casting object, and make the actual 3D trees not to cast any shadow. Perhaps the depth in the 3D tree could be achieved by baking AO somehow... IDK...
     
  8. Travis

    Travis Registered

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    I'm guessing for rF2 however other sims (e.g. AMS, AC, ACC, R3E et al) all have reflection updates at a much smoother fps which would be at least 60fps.

    AMS reflections are much more basic but there are performance savings in that too.
     
  9. slimsymeat

    slimsymeat Registered

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    It's the model in the 2nd instance, when the shadow is cast the distance is set to come into view way to late, it's a mistake I reckon but only they can fix it. All the tress cast their shadows sooner so no pop up. I've used 3D SimEd for rfactor but it's a bit different and it won't pick up loose files either. That's why adjusting the Cam.Cam file is a easy fix for me, but having to make a new revision of a mod just to change one line is a pain to say the least when the guys who obviously care and do an amazing job leave these little issues.
     
  10. slimsymeat

    slimsymeat Registered

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    Another example of the shadow transition on cars. Look at the rear spoiler on the cup car. No fade just goes from nice to next to nothing. rfactor2c.jpg rfactor2d.jpg
     
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  11. AlexHeuskat

    AlexHeuskat Registered

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    I now play with Shadows OFF, so there is no more shadows popping, flickering, barrieres following, nothing, and with Nordscheife, it's very beauty.
    But I find the cars without shadows floating, so we should have a separate shadows option, one for the track, one for the cars.
    And we have at Nordschleife many many LOD object issues, there are trees and objects popping, I prepare a list.
     
  12. Andrew Hollom

    Andrew Hollom Registered

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    I'm not sure what 'baked in shadows' are, but it would be possible for static objects to have their shadows updated at a very low rate and for the textures they fall on to be updated and reused until next updated. The rate could be very low, as the sun doesn't move that fast and the weather doesn't change that quickly either (a cloud would cause a diffuse shadow and overcast sky very diffuse shadows from the many sources of light), even with accelerated time. Shadows really add quite a lot to the immersion, so having poor quality shadows or, worse still, having to turn them off obviously results in a sub-par experience.
     
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  13. AlexHeuskat

    AlexHeuskat Registered

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    I find that for hotlap, without shadows, it's not worst than the shadows barriers following issues at Nordschleife, or the shadows popping issues.
    Only the lack of cars shadows can remove the immersion in a race, cause they seem floating.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020

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