Seriously how long now please?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by LokiD, Jun 6, 2019.

  1. Ari Antero

    Ari Antero Registered

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    AI`s are predictable and are easy to race no mater how good they are but when you race against Homo sapiens (Wise man) it is different story. ;)
     
  2. McKiernan

    McKiernan Registered

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    I don't believe that anyone has been arguing that offline racing can be comparable to online racing. What people are asking for is a more rewarding offline experience, which can be delivered by addressing the well documented issues with the AI.
     
  3. Binny

    Binny Registered

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    IMHO iracing needs to move with the times and come out with a new engine to compete with new sims and rf2. but im sure there are plenty that will disagree with me.
     
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  4. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    Rfactor2’s code was a tangled spaghetti mess fest ,

    the new UI is just the front interface of a completely overhaul of the core sim code

    The core sim will be more easily accessible for mods & updates

    So it was quite a big job

    That’s how I understand it anyhow
     
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  5. DaVeX

    DaVeX Registered

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    I don't think so...a new UI? Sure! A completely overhaul of the core sim code? Not at all!
    If you don't have a source for that better don't say such things, poor guys like me will think it is true and dream about it...
     
  6. Depco

    Depco Registered

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    I recall Marcel saying that they had to rewrite most of the base code due to how much of a mess the old code was. It was most of the reason that the UI took so long to get completed... then after they completed the rewrite and UI they decided to implement the New Competition infrastructure into the new code. That took even more time. But we seem to be nearing the end of that process now and hopefully will have the UI and CI shortly.
     
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  7. jymp

    jymp Registered

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    All that is nice, new UI the whole bit, just keep it mod friendly
     
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  8. Seven Smiles

    Seven Smiles Registered

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    Yes, I understood the UI code was mixed in with some of the sim code (the "outer edges" of it if you like) and that made replacing the UI difficult because every instance had to be "unmixed", but that doesn’t mean the core sim code was touched at all (unless ISI's spaghettifying was mindlessly awful). A clean design would have the UI completely separate, able to run on its own, but in the heat of development it would have been very easy to blur the border between UI and sim and once you’re on that slippery slope it’s soon very hard to recover (though I’m surprised at how hard it has apparently been).
     
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  9. Depco

    Depco Registered

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    There were outdated parts of rF1 code still in the base of rF2, as I recall hearing. Parts of code that were never removed ether because some other important part was tied into it or because ISI never felt the need to throw out the old code when creating rF2. Alot of ISI's decisions regarding rF2 seemed in hindsight either lazy or "making due" with what they could get done, given the small size of the development team. Decisions by ISI, like not moving to DX11 with rF2, were also hampering S397 after they bought rF2 from ISI.

    Frankly, I think S397 have done a fantastic job with rF2 thus far. They have been continually fixing ISI's mistakes and bringing back to life a sim that ISI had all but given up for dead. I also commend S397 for how they made the slow but deliberate change from DX9 to DX11 (with VR) while still maintaining compatibility with old mod content. This allowed modders to bring their creations up to the DX11 standards before DX9 was no longer supported. In fact I would say that they would have had a much easier time had they simply bit the bullet and thrown out all the old DX9 content and not done anything to ensure backwards compatibility. They certainly could have saved themselves some time and likely headaches. The argument can be made that they HAD to do maintain compatibility to ensure people kept playing rF2 though. Simply dumping all the DX9 content and going completely to DX11 that early in the process would have been suicide.

    If I were S397 I might send ISI a letter and ask for a refund of some of the purchase price. LOL. Just Kidding.

    Imagine finding a Ferrari for sale at a good price. You go test drive it and find that it runs but not as well as it could. You see potential and decide to take a chance on it thinking that you could do the repairs relatively quickly. Once you get it home you find that half the cylinders fire 30% of the time. You realize that you need to rebuild the entire engine for the car to live up to its potential. Do you dump the car on the side of the road? Nope. Do you dump every dollar you have left over immediately into the engine and hope that it comes out right and you dont go broke (and get divorced) before completing the overhaul? Nope. I would slowly restore the engine getting parts when I can afford it and working on it as much as possible until it was restored. In this way I wouldn't have to take out a 3rd mortgage and sell 2 internal organs to get it done.

    Of course the missus may get a bit angry with the room it is taking up in the garage before long and you will have to endure the comments and criticisms. But once it is done you take her out and let her enjoy the ride, thereby feeling good about the project.

    This is what S397 are doing with this game. Taking a broken sim and making it better to fulfill its potential. I for one, am grateful that they took the chance.
     
  10. Rui Santos

    Rui Santos Registered

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    Where is the "love" button??? This is one of the best posts i've seen around, it's hard to find people that understand the HUGE task S397 had and still have to make rF2 shine again...
     
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  11. Seven Smiles

    Seven Smiles Registered

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    All true, but you're talking about the game as a whole rather than just the UI and what had to be done to replace it. Although - Marcel said that the UI engine was taken straight from rF1 (why wouldn't you? A simracing UI is a simracing UI is a simracing UI...) and its data structures got more and more difficult to bend to do what they wanted.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2019
  12. stonec

    stonec Member

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    Coding complex systems like race sims is always an iterative process where you re-use code, it is not an issue as such. I wouldn't be surprised if pCars 2 re-uses something like 80-90% of the code from pCars 1. An even more obvious example would be the Codemasters F1 sims, which they sell as "new" each year. I bet people wouldn't be as willing to buy their new title if they saw how much of the same code is used from previous year. In fact, I'd argue they are probably maintaining just one main code base, so essentially each year the current "snapshot" of the code base gets released as a new title.

    Regarding rF2, ISI alluded in some old interview that there are parts of the code that are two decades old. To be honest I think this approach of iterative or incremental development worked well for the physics engine. The physics we are driving now are still the ones ISI built for rF2, which in turn were influenced by rF Pro. Both are using a big chunk of the aero and chassis physics from rF1, which in turn was based on F1 Challenge, etc. It seems that rF2 physics are generally accepted as the best ones and few people outright dislike them, whereas iRacing gets constant criticism for their "new" tire models. Max Verstappen mentioned in some interview that the F1 car in rF2 feels the closest to real that he has driven, which tells something.

    The other side of the coin is that this sort of incremental development obviously became an issue with the UI. UI's tend to evolve in design over time and people no longer find acceptable what we had with Windows 98. The rF2 UI system from my understanding is/was basically similar in core as in rF1 and probably even F1 Challenge, which I remember had a partly moddable UI as well. There is an interface provided with so called "gizmos", which I tried to mod many years ago, but it turned out to be quite a nightmare
     
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  13. Stefan_L_01

    Stefan_L_01 Registered

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    Instead of UI I d prefer progress in the realtime behaviour (say lags, freezes).
    S397 brought big progress to rf2 in terms of graphics, new mod design, new skin design, and soon UI which is also kind of design. I hope they also invest in abillity to improve hidden but complex core codings like realtime processing. syncs , etc.
     
  14. Staenker

    Staenker Registered

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    While I do understand the problems and costs introduced by repeating bad architectural decisions, I think a fair question is: How was Assetto Corsa Launcher, which basically is a new UI for Assetto Corsa(the old one), created in less time?

    EDIT: Sorry, I meant Assetto Corsa Content Manager(https://assettocorsa.club/content-manager.html), not Assetto Corsa Launcher
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
  15. Ari Antero

    Ari Antero Registered

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    AC has the most unlogical UI and probably is no benchmark how fast it was done and how it looks like IMO.
     
  16. Staenker

    Staenker Registered

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    Agreed to 100%!

    Sorry, I meant Assetto Corsa Content Manager(https://assettocorsa.club/content-manager.html), not Assetto Corsa Launcher
     
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  17. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    No.
    AC UI is much more intuitive than RF2.
     
  18. Ari Antero

    Ari Antero Registered

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    Do you mean the new upcoming UI or existing UI ?
     
  19. mr.Sw1tchblade

    mr.Sw1tchblade Registered

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    nvm
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  20. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    Vanilla AC UI vs current RF2 UI.
    In RF2's "defense", it has more options therefore more complexity expected
     

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