Sailing with slicks - the rain is broken in rF2 thread

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Remco Majoor, Feb 1, 2021.

  1. DmitryRUS

    DmitryRUS Registered

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    No, not convincing. If the picture was beautiful, there would be no questions. Even in the screenshot that was shown, the weather is not convincing. I see a general eagle reflection of the building and one column on the right, where is the reflection of the fence on the right? It's just a shiny texture. Harsh shadows from the sun under the roof of the house above the garage, where are they from? If the graphics engine is wrong, why release it at all. There is not a single convincing screenshot that, looking at the surroundings, says the weather is good or bad. Every day I go to the screenshots section, convincingness is only under certain circumstances, the sun at sunset is everything. As for the purple tint in AC, this is a filter that is superior to reflections, there is a section on various post-processing filters. You know that well.
    I do not have a goal to make an ice path so that physics would work correctly at sub-zero temperatures, etc. This is not found anywhere in simulators, but it can be modeled. Therefore, I say that pF1, in principle, is not much different from pF2. Only the graphics are uglier. I say that 10 years have passed, there are improvements, but insignificant. How many more years does it take for something to become acceptable or visually competitive? I am not talking about physics. I'm only talking about the visual part.
    There are big drawbacks in modeling, the complexity of the reflection system, and I don’t understand, such an unsympathetic picture and such overstated system requirements. They are independent graphic designers, so why don't they have one artist to balance all these visual aspects? Everything is so ridiculous ...
    And again I will repeat myself and ask myself a question, is the work of a real road, why do the traces of drawing come from the center of the car, why not from the wheels? PC2 project has a Livetrack 3 system, the wheels themselves paint the surface on the asphalt and soil, why is this system baked in RF2? If a dense polygon system is required, can you innovate the rendering of this system? They already have a fairly large assortment of goods, each car is bought by each user, a gigantic resource is invested in development, if they themselves cannot develop their product and close open questions, can they connect more talented people?
     
  2. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    If you don't understand how a scene is composed then why even claim that it isn't beautiful? I will tell you that much: the shadow is drawn from the roof of the grandstand. As you seem to be in the camp of the guys who like to play with filters instead of looking for a realisitic looking environment I will stop discussing this topic. AC is your game so stick with it, but please stop claiming that your opinion - and beauty lies in the eye of the beholder - defines the capabilities of a graphics engine. It's ridiciolous. If your screenshots were beautiful you could answer me one single question: Why is your world purple? That's a rethorical question btw. and if there is a question, it can't be beautiful, right?!
     
  3. DmitryRUS

    DmitryRUS Registered

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    I see that this is a shadow from the podium, a question in its sharp boundaries and its contrast on different surfaces. When the sun shines through the clouds. This is one of the key points of the shadows, they are everywhere just black, absorbing any surface, or vice versa, too pale where this shadow should be denser. When the problem with reflective surfaces is solved (there are more reflections of objects on the road), equalize the density of shadows applied to different shaders, colors and surfaces + solve problems with Fresnel reflections. Then the picture will be good.

    Do the developers at least sometimes answer here or maybe they come in? Or, as always, there is not enough money?
     
  4. DmitryRUS

    DmitryRUS Registered

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    AC is not my game, it's easier to model the environment and achieve what I need. My game is rF1, I was satisfied with rF2 and waited for further development from ISI visualization, earthworks, but in the end everything was abandoned, and studio 397 is engaged in crafts in the form of cars and caterpillars. The move to DX11 did not give the visible expected results. So I ask someone what is the future of the game? Or will the popularity be supported in the form of new series and some kind of championships?
    Soon, I think ISI will be screaming about the release of RF3 and the first alpha tests, which will have to be bought for $ 400 ...
    and do not forget to update the system requirements with the latest technology, everyone will receive the graphics of the beginning of 2000 and the recalculation of physics in the beginning of 2003 on new modern computers.
     
  5. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    I am not sure if it is a language barrier problem or not, but you need to understand that the graphics engine is in constant development, with autoexposure, screenspace reflections and raytracing being some of the things that have been talked about recently. People need to calm their horses when it comes to the aquisition of S397 by MG, as I suspect that's what you are referring to.
     
  6. FAlonso

    FAlonso Registered

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    I agree that gmotor is not a bad motor, AC lacks lighting bulbs, lacks animations, lacks 3d objects .... gmmotor is more complete, but visually it is not pleasing to the eye, the image is often very little detailed, without nuances: gray track, blue sky and green grass, it looks like a solid texture.
    It looks very pale, not very showy, it seems to have a very subdued color palette, it gives me the feeling that it has a kind of filter that I don't like at all.
    To this day I think it is below the competition in this regard.
    I also agree that the rain in AC is only a visual aspect that for me has no incentive since it has no impact on physics, in addition to not having suitable tires. Still lowering the grip of the track you can get sensations "similar" to reality.
    Even so, I don't get that reality either in rFactor, the absence of water accumulation makes it feel unnatural as a simple lowering of grip on the track as in the case of AC.
    Although ISI created a good base far superior to anything seen before today, it is lagging behind the competition.
     
  7. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    But what about physics and stuff that affects the way you race?
     
  8. FAlonso

    FAlonso Registered

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    I am aware that rF2 does its job better, AC was not designed for it.

    But I want to say that rF2 even being superior is an unrealistic experience, in real life rain tires provide great grip on water, the main challenge of racing in the rain is aquaplaning.
     
  9. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Grip on water sounds like oxymoron. You probably meant on damp surfaces. I agree grip should be rather peaky in many situations. Basically grip apart tire specifics should be more speed dependant, water depth dependant and surface smoothness dependant.
     
  10. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    I suspect that you mean it with rain tires though, not slicks?
     
  11. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    It depends on how you read it. If "in real life rain - tires provide", or "in real life - rain tires provide" :D

    Here is one awesome video no one will care to watch, because this is brain stuff:



    And RL rain certainly still provides good grip with proper tires, but much sharper, because sliding is sharper. There are tons of racing footage onboards and external view of cars driving on the limit in damp or flooded tracks. As long as they have contact, they do grip relatively well. But as soon dynamic or viscous hydroplaning kicks in, the fluctuations of grip becomes pretty large. It is often seen that racecars in the rain becomes more twitchy. Thats ecactly because of that.
     
  12. FAlonso

    FAlonso Registered

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    Please forgive my problems expressing myself correctly, I am not using my language. I mean that rFactor does not provide a correct operation in the rain due to the inesistance of puddles that produce aquaplaning, a rain tire on a wet track does not usually pose any challenge, that tire has a good grip on the track, only the presence of puddles on the track makes driving difficult. That's when the fun of running in the rain begins, the non-existence of puddles in rFactor makes it feel incomplete for me and I find no incentive to run in the rain as with AC. I prefer to run on the old nkpro rather than rF2 or AC.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2021
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  13. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Try my Goodwood "wet" mod in AC :D I wish I could do it better in rF2 without using fake "wet" mod. But can't.

    True puddles are major thing making wet track driving difficult. Thats called dynamic hydroplaning. But you miss another important component which is track getting way more slippery in racign lines where road is rubbered and polished, to put it more simply - a smooth surface, then much thiner layer of water is required to cause hydroplaning, which has different name - viscous hydroplaning. Not to mention general grip reduction simply because overal lubrication and lowered adhesion, but that is not as dramatic.

    My favorite all time wet track sim experience was ACC in its very first release. IMO it worked beautifuly because both tires and track was very right. Although there wasn't viscous hydroplanign at all then, wet kerbs adn paint was too grippy, and hydroplaning didn't seem to relate to tire pressure... anyway it was fantastic. Sadly physics of earliest ACC public build were pretty much protested away by the community.
     
  14. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    I think it's a bit simplistic to say that driving in the wet is all about dealing with aquaplaning. There are enough examples of drivers (even the best of them) making mistakes in the rain without the influence of aquaplaning and if it was just about managing aquaplaning F1 cars could perfectly drive on wet grass. Schumacher missed T1 in Monaco in 1998 not due to aquaplaning and he didn't hit the wall in 1996 in Monaco due to aquaplaning either. Grip levels play an important role while driving in the wet as there still is a contact patch that has to deal with the surface grip levels, that are reduced alot obviously.

    Aquaplaning only happens when there is too much water, so that the tires can't drain enough water. There is a critical phase until that happens and that phase is done pretty well in rF2 aswell with managing wheelspin and breaking. The faster you drive the easier it gets due to the forces involved and downforce doing it's job, while there clearly is a point when you feel the car skating off the track when you apply too much throttle or breake preassure. It's not perfect, but it offers a decent representation of dealing with varying grip levels depending on the amount of water on track. Besides the aquaplaning part, the sensation of driving in the wet is pretty similar in ACC and rF2, it's just that you have to find a way around the puddles in ACC. I've spent the last couple of days with the Porsche Cup car at Spa in full wet conditions - something that I can recommend anyone wanting to test wet weather racing - and it was pretty convincing. Driving in the wet is more about constantly driving on the edge where the margin for error is alot smaller compared to dry conditions. Not doing any mistakes is actually the key and not just being the fastest. The interesting part is that I found the Cup Car reasonably easy even without TC and ABS while it's quite a challenging car to drive overall. Something that stands out a bit in all racing sims is that curbs and painted areas should be more slippery in wet conditions. I had no issues accelerating on the astroturf, curbs and white lines in any of the sims, something that could be modelled alot better. Aquaplaning is ofcourse something that would be nice to have in rF2, but it's not taking away from the things that work well allready.

    That said, something that I completely agree with is that the sky rendering needs an update to better convey what is going on with the weather. I am not expecting a weather sim like in Madness engine, because it's obvious that this was developed with a "bit" bigger budget, but swapping the Stratus clouds for Cumulus clouds would go a long way. Stratus Clouds and heavy rain don't work well together. The nice thing is that Cumulus clouds aren't bound to any specific conditions or forecasts, so they work well in good weather and bad weather and transport much better the development of weather. While racing rF2 in "Overcast and Storm" conditions I never had the feeling of driving in a storm. This sim desperately needs ambient and track temps, same like wind and humidity to proper build up fog and offer a more dynamic environment and present the drying track better, as that's heavily dependend on the surrounding factors. I've had a bit of Meteorology and Hydrology at University during the last two years and it's just a matter of finaly enabling what's in the UI since the beginning of rF2 and linking the variables proplery with mathematical functions.
     
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  15. Mitch9

    Mitch9 Registered

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    Famous last words :D

    I think its reasonable to expect an update on clouds in the next couple of months, since we already had one in january(?) but it broke the graphics so it was rolled back to be fixed...

    I´m also under the impression that painted areas are supposed to be more slippery when wet, but does it apliy to all types of paint? i.e. Paul Ricard off track red/blue zones; those have some abrassive levels of grip to slow cars down, is that effect supposed to go away entirely under the rain?
     
  16. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Depends on surface roughness and draining.
     
  17. FAlonso

    FAlonso Registered

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    can you send me a download link? This weekend I will give him an intense test.
     

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