S397: Track Dev Wishlist Thread

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by burgesjl, Apr 30, 2018.

  1. burgesjl

    burgesjl Registered

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    Summary

    I believe we need S397 to commit to develop a number of popular tracks using laser scan technology where possible, to cover a significant portion of major racing series, over the next 2-3 years. The following is my suggested list:

    Americas: Watkins Glen, Road America, Road Atlanta, Laguna Seca
    Europe: Spa, (modern) Monza, Paul Ricard + one other
    Asia: 2-3 tracks such as Fuji and/or Shanghai

    Discussion

    There is a significant lack of quality tracks that exist for rF2, whether these are mod versions (that are not rips of other games like AC) or in-house developed, for current or recent race series. When we look at the cars S397 has released or is about to be released, that could be considered core popular content, we see a mix of endurance racing and GT racing being covered: LMP2, LMP3, GTE and GT3 car packs. With this in mind, we also need a selection of tracks to go race with.

    So I start with ELMS, given its closest match so far. We have Silverstone; we lack Spa, Monza and Paul Ricard. We can replace Algarve with the Portugal track we have, which leaves Red Bull Ring (Spielberg).

    If we extend into WEC, we have Silverstone and upcoming Sebring, and the above Spa being added would provide enough coverage. We'd lack Le Mans, Nurburgring GP, Fuji and Shanghai.

    Given we have started on US tracks, we can continue with IMSA. With Sebring and Lime Rock, the key tracks we are missing are Watkins Glen, Road America, Road Atlanta and Laguna Seca. This would leave Daytona, COTA, Mosport and VIR for permanent tracks, and Long Beach and Belle Isle as street circuits. For the latter, they are difficult to access and get scans done, and require a lot of unique and time-consuming artwork. The Daytona roval is fairly unique and not much used for anything else; COTA is a very difficult virtual track on the basis of many blind and >90 deg corners.

    Continuing the US theme, for PWC GT3 we have Lime Rock, upcoming Portland; overlap to Watkins Glen and Road America in my core list; overlap to COTA, VIR and Mosport; Utah; and add St Pete to Long Beach as street circuits.

    For Blancpain GT3 in Europe, the overlap with ELMS is Paul Ricard, Spa and Monza; We have Silverstone; we'd lack Misano, Zolder, Brands Hatch, Hungaroring, Barcelona and Nurburgring GP. A license for this is out of the question at this point, and probably also for the many SRO-aligned regional championships, but some exist that are not.

    So for my core track list, I have picked the most logical candidates that give us most coverage of the key series. It is my contention that, whilst S397 is showing good progress in producing contemporary car packs, they need to do the same with tracks and be developing at a rate of 4-6 tracks per year, where they are currently generating only 1-2. I'm sure several of these tracks have 'commercial' laserscan data that can be bought, and of course, they mainly exist in other sims/games already. The list needs to be short enough to be achievable and not overwhelming.

    Would you like to see S397 commit to develop such a core list of tracks? Discuss!
     
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  2. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    Any track as long as it’s laser scanned
     
  3. hardtohandle

    hardtohandle Registered

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    I think paid for tracks have one advantage over paid for cars in that you do not need to try them out before you pay. Like this upcoming Sebring, we all know that's gonna rock before we even download it, and the purchase decision is a no brainer. Paid for cars are a much more speculative purchase.

    If S397 were to produce a whole set of very high quality tracks I would be glad to pay good money for them. And that's not something I say very often. So to answer your question, yes, I would like to see s397 commit to something like this.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2018
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  4. MarcG

    MarcG Registered

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    Just gimme an official selection of Aussie/NZ Tracks and I'll be happy!
     
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  5. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

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    100% agree with this thread, but i don't care for it being laser scanned
    nice= yeah
    imperative= no!
    said this a thousand times, if one LS track equal 2 say 3 normal tracks. Give me non laser any day!
     
  6. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    But Aussie NZ wasn't in the original poster's lists. What about BTCC tracks? What about historical tracks? Nascar Ovals? See? even a "logical" progression of tracks will leave many users frustrated.
     
  7. Skan

    Skan Registered

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    Any track I cannot see in real life for whatever reason is great. It's like visiting other places without really leaving here or being there.
     
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  8. McNolo

    McNolo Registered

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    Creating 4 or 6 tracks per year in rFactor 2 (we talk about normal tracks, not karting) is only available to relatively large groups of people. Making a track requires a lot of work and time, it is not easy, so unless we are talking about large companies with several dedicated full-time employees making tracks, I think it's impossible.

    In my opinion, maybe if the business grows enough they could hire more people to make more tracks, but in the current situation I think it is not possible (my personal opinion, obviously). Perhaps with the new store announced with third-party content more tracks may come in less time.
     
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  9. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

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    Laser scanning isn't the be all and end all for me. Take McNolo's Bahrain as an example. Is it laser scanned? No. Does it drive well? Yes. Is it well made? Yes.

    Bathurst, surely?
     
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  10. Ace Pumpkin

    Ace Pumpkin Registered

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    I only need a laserscanned Nordschleife for this to be my top sim.
     
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  11. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

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    I think if RF2 wants to keep up with iRacing then laser scanned Sebring (which is coming), Spa, Silverstone, Bathurst and Monza are probably the ones to look at first.

    iRacing still has the 2008 layout of Silverstone apparently.
     
  12. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

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    Like I said in another thread: they should make a list of all major tracks used by main series around the world (local and international), check what is possible and desirable to be licensed and what isn't.
    What is not possible put in a 3PA program. Provide all textures, materials, etc to the people in the 3PA to get these tracks in the game with a quality consistent with the rest of the game (like NOLA, but then Zandvoort wont have that quality... -_-)
    I'd pay for tracks like this honestly, as long as it's a price that makes sense. That could help to bring people to work on them. If that could be in the Steam item page, even better.
    This is the only way for a sim to have all the major tracks in the world.
     
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  13. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

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    We need tracks :)
     
  14. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

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    This is only my own personal opinion, but these are the tracks that I would consider 'standards':

    Silverstone
    Spa
    Monza
    Indianapolis Oval
    Indianapolis GP
    Daytona Oval
    Daytona Road Course
    Barcelona
    Laguna Seca
    Road America
    Interlagos
    Bathurst Mt Panorama
    Nurburgring GP
    Suzuka
    Brands Hatch
    Watkins Glen
    Donnington Park

    Although, a laser scanned Monaco... Hmm...
     
  15. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

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    And that's exactly the problem, all sims go mostly for these and forget all the rest. Many great Aussie and North American tracks are always forgotten or impossible to license, same for Japan (Suzuka license is expensive as hell I heard.. not even SMS went for it and put a fantasy track there instead), and then many other tracks that are not used by international racing series. Would really feel happy if the guys at S397 said this will happen. Especially the ovals... forget about having any of them licensed =/
    Seriously tho make these tracks, sell each of them for $2 or $3 so nobody complains, make some money on amount sold. Have a happy user base with plenty of good quality stuff that works for both off and online.
     
  16. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

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    Okay Will- These are my personal hidden gems:

    Symmons Plains- Australia
    Phillip Island- Australia
    Road Atlanta- USA
    Croft- UK
    Mallory Park- UK
    Pukekohe- New Zealand
    Snetterton- UK
    Oran Park- Australia
    Castle Coombe- UK
    Oschersleben- Germany
    Norisring- Germany
    Zolder- Belgium

    Even if they made them and gave them fake names like they did with Matsusaka, it's SOMETHING. We all know what it's called!
     
  17. Mauro

    Mauro Registered

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    For me no laser scanned needs

    A quality Trackpack with best '60/'70 historic tracks (and various layout)
    It would be a dlc if needed

    Something like:

    Kyalami
    Osterreichring
    Silverstone
    Watkins Glen
    Brands Hatch
    Buenos Aires
    Mosport
    Mexico
    Rouen (released by digga)
    Zandvoort (wip by sergio loro)
    Mont Tremblant (wip by gilles benoit)
     
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  18. Sebastien Sestacq

    Sebastien Sestacq Registered

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    Autopolis -- Japan
     
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  19. burgesjl

    burgesjl Registered

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    Some interesting responses so far.

    My first reply is to @stonec who stated that he doesn't believe it's possible to do 4-6 new tracks each year. Firstly, we've seen just about EVERY other sim maker achieve the same or more; SMS have 30+ tracks, Sector3 30+ tracks over 5 year period, so 6 per year is definitely possible SO LONG AS you have the resources to do so. In particular with SMS on PC2, they reworked virtually every track to have trees with seasonal leaf patterns, snow, puddles and various other updates, as well as adding completely new tracks. So how did they do it? A look at the Credits gives a pretty good clue. There's a lot of people involved, both in creation and testing, and I'm betting that many of those are contractors or came from the publisher's resources not the specific studio. When involved in PC1 during the dev phase, it was noticeable how they had some tracks get gradually built with each weekly build (not all, but progress on many in parallel) and then they'd get a couple of complete tracks 'out of nowhere', which I hypothesize were done by the contractors.

    So, maybe the answer here is with the 3PA program. Clearly the in-house team want to develop their expertise with the laser scanning and various other new techniques they are developing. But they've also clearly 'aligned' with folks like jka to develop Botniaring, and I'm pretty sure the same is true for Zandvoort. Those are a labor of love for the individuals involved. By contrast, Sector3 employed feels3 directly. I don't think it's necessary to do all tracks as laser scanned; we can see good quality for the likes of Interlagos, Bathurst, Matsusaka that were done as part of 3PA or partnerships. I wouldn't have any problems with them aligning with Virtua LM (monsum?) who made Mid Ohio and Sebring, and on his last post, was clearly in the throes of making Watkins Glen. It's possible these folks don't want to be 'under deadline' and maybe have other jobs they don't want to leave. For instance, there are a couple of 'mod track' versions of Road America, but they all fall short with good textures and a consistent 'feel' with the official content. For 3PAs, they'd need to work with a consistent set of assets (textures, standard items like fences, tire stacks etc.) and techniques to build them.

    Why do I feel we need to develop these core tracks/most popular tracks? First, the very fact you have them means you get more people playing the sim, online or offline. And doing so on consistent versions, is also a big benefit. From iRacing, it is clearly obvious that when they create schedules with tracks like Watkins Glen, those get about 3x or more the participation of tracks like Snetterton. But, a rising tide lifts all boats, and even Snetterton gets a boost when the season runs several of these more popular tracks. Second, as things stand, S397 are pretty much incapable of coming up with any esports competition like WFG that extends beyond about 2 or 3 tracks. Finally, they have to do it because the competition has them. This list was developed from a spreadsheet I built that listed all the major tracks, listed what each major PC sim had, which real life series raced them, etc. For example, every sim has a version of Brands Hatch (many laser scanned) yet rF2 does not; same with Imola, Laguna Seca etc. iRacing are going to be coming along soon with AI and new offline features (career modes/championships and suchlike) and I think that will encourage a lot of people to stay inside that system rather than using other sims for their offline enjoyment. The one title where there is similarity for me is AC; as stated, they have about 12 tracks (3 or more only via DLC) and I rarely use that because of the very limited selection of tracks without going for mod versions. Frankly, I'm not that interested in driving Vallelunga or Maggione, much like I'm not much disposed to running Mores or Atlanta Motorsport Park or NOLA on rF2. They do suit certain types of cars; but those are usually not the ones from the major, global/international series from which I derived my suggested list.

    Also, it was my intent to include ANZ in my Asia list. We've got a good version of Bathurst and of course there are several Supercars tracks folks might like to see such as Philip Island and the many street tracks like Surfers Paradise; however, we don't have Supercars available. Most titles are lacking these tracks. I've had a long-standing rant at iRacing who have licensed certain cars (V8SCs, IndyCars) and then not the tracks they race on (specifically the street courses, in both cases).

    Of course if folks are mainly interested in historical tracks and not contemporary ones, then different rules apply. Those clearly won't be laser scanned. There's a need to get a suitably deep list of tracks for that too, you can't run Brianza and Belgium all day every day.

    Again, my philosophy is to produce sets of cars AND tracks that go together. My belief is that modders can work on the 'less popular' tracks to fill out the schedules. Of course, ISI and S397 have more often licensed those tracks (perhaps because of cost) and I think that's what has led us to the 'shortage' of major tracks.
     
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  20. The Iron Wolf

    The Iron Wolf Registered

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    Modern Spa, Hockenheim and Nurburgring. Having those three will make me a happy camper :)
     
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