rFactor2 Test Build 107 Released

[Kknorpp001]

From logitech profiler I have set it to 106% strength as I did read that would give most out from ffb, with 0.3 it is quite fine. It should be noted that if one tries to get similar level of forces as in real car, then one ends up with ffb being kind of capped, where smaller and larger forces can't be separated from each other, that is why only relatively light ffb is then giving whole range of force. Difficulty is then to know when force is strongest without sacrificing that range, varies from car to car naturally.

Not sure if steering arm force from motec logs could be used some way to adjust ffb in game, with rF1 and realfeel method was to look what kind of steering arm forces there was and adjust realfeel.ini value accordingly, but I don't know if rF2 has similar values to set and if some unit conversions are required?

I really can't use higher than 0.4 as then it starts to be only something like on/off.

I am intrigued by this idea b/c like I said before there was that rf1 thingy where you ran rf1 in a window and you had another window with force levels or something like that and then you drove on a rough road or something like that should give maximum response and you looked at the read out which refreshed a new line every fraction of a second and you could really teak the settings in real time using key strokes and maximize the range. Ring a bell? Applicable to rf2 maybe also?

 

[MaXyM]

With comments like that though I would pretty much abandon any support for such a user and let them fend for themselves with their eyes and mind firmly closed.

loosing some significant part of customers?
you probably dont understand that such approach results:
- need to answer on complaints/ requests which is time consuming and annoying
- massive complains affects sales
- probably you will get negative points in reviews which will touch you personaly and also affect sales

of course you are free to do that since you are the author, but why?

 

[MaXyM]

I really can't use higher than 0.4 as then it starts to be only something like on/off.

maybe you are using too high SL? for example default SL feels to me simmilar to what you described. but setting for example SL 17* for megane (with car specific wheel rotation) makes it perfect for 107/1.0 strength.

 

[martymoose]

loosing some significant part of customers?
you probably dont understand that such approach results:
- need to answer on complaints/ requests which is time consuming and annoying
- massive complains affects sales
- probably you will get negative points in reviews which will touch you personaly and also affect sales

of course you are free to do that since you are the author, but why?

But seeing as you said.

But why to force people to learn things when it is possible to avoid it?

I think puts my comment more into context, no matter what a publisher or software developer does will everything work perfectly for every single person. They may fix it in your case but break it for someone else so how would that be any better?

If the user has no interest in learning how to make adjustments to get the most out of his computer and controllers then is ISI meant to send someone out to do something for them that they could quite simply do with a tiny bit of research or basic reading.

I have a g25 and it works fine as was, I made some tweaks to customize it to how I like. It hasn't shortened my life or caused me any headaches simply by spending a little time and learning how to get the most out of my setup. ISI have more important things to do then waste months thinking about every possible hardware, software and controller configuration of all possible users of their software when the user can figure this out themselves in a few minutes.

RF2 is also still in Beta so we dont even know what the final options and settings will be in-game, it could stay as is which would be fine by me or it could be tweaked a little to make it a little easier for people like you that dont know how to access config files.

 

[MaXyM]

I think puts my comment more into context, no matter what a publisher or software developer does will everything work perfectly for every single person.

My comment you quoted also coming from some context: running game the first time. IMO it is not the best moment in case of provider-customer relation .

They may fix it in your case but break it for someone else so how would that be any better?

That's why some compromise must be taken. I suggested to setup the game for majority of customers. In my opinion it would be better choice. That's all.

 

[jtbo]

maybe you are using too high SL? for example default SL feels to me simmilar to what you described. but setting for example SL 17* for megane (with car specific wheel rotation) makes it perfect for 107/1.0 strength.

900 degrees and 18 degrees for most cars. I find steering to be still bit too quick around center area.

 

[osella]

900 degrees and 18 degrees for most cars. I find steering to be still bit too quick around center area.

What... that's a steering ratio of a bus lol.. you really have to turn the wheel a lot in slow corners don't you?

 

[jtbo]

What... that's a steering ratio of a bus lol.. you really have to turn the wheel a lot in slow corners don't you?

Not very much surprisingly, not even one full turn like in real car, less if I use throttle to turn the car, also I find that with this setting I don't over correct when catching slides.

Besides, in a truck steering ratio is something like 900 degrees on wheel and 9 degrees steering lock, 6 if no power steering, pit exits are bit interesting with truck of course.

17.5:1 to 28:1 are quite common range with cars I'm currently working.

900 degrees is just way too little for any proper car.

 

[88mphTim]

But why to force people to learn things when it is possible to avoid it? there is some mission or so?
I understand that simracer should learn how to go fast, how to setup a car etc. But editing config files should not be his job.

...and won't be, for this issue... As was already stated.

 

[Gearjammer]

@MaXyM:

You say you are a developer and make your product as easy as possible for your end users.

Lets put some things into light that you consider and look at what is really happening.

1) You say that the majority of users of sim racing software use the G25/27.
2) Most users of the G25/27 know that there are better wheels out there.
3) Most users of the G25/27 are familiar with the fact that adjustments are required in order to get the most out of their wheel.
4) Most users of the G25/27 know that if they experience issues, the best place to look for advice is on the sim's forums.
5) Most users of the G25/27 are not new to sims due to the expense of the wheel.
6) Most new users would be using a low cost wheel to begin with so their initial expense would be low.
7) Most users of the G25/27 have dissimilar systems and software and so each is unique. (If you don't believe this, have a look at a sim site and look at any show your cockpit thread.)

What does all of this mean? It means that the typical user that you wish to cater to already knows enough about their hardware to know they can find the answers if they wish and they have a good idea where they can get the answer. If we were talking about an arcade game, then sure, dumb it down as there are a lot of people that play arcade games that expect the game to work perfect right out of the box. Sim racers are not those racers though.

If someone is moving up to sim racing from arcade, sure they might need some help, but they will learn, and need to learn that things can be adjusted to best fit their own unique situation.

 

[buddhatree]

Agreed ^

I think MaXyM is underestimating the target audience for this project.

This is a PC only racing sim, not a multi-platform racing game.

GTR, GTL, GTR2, Race07, rF1..... I had to mess with ini and plr files for ALL of those games.

Anyone who is familiar with racing sims knows this and knows where to look and where to ask for answers.

 

[sg333]

Pretty pointless argument to be honest. The one thing i would say to ISI, under the recommended specs they should add "belt driven wheel". At least then you can say "well, we recommend..."

 

[MaXyM]

If someone is moving up to sim racing from arcade, sure they might need some help, but they will learn, and need to learn that things can be adjusted to best fit their own unique situation.

Indeed. But you (being a developer) should no slap into their face at the first run, saying: you have to learn first then race. If it is possible to make the first run easier - why to not do this? Just because it is hardcore-sim and everything must be hardcore including starting the software?

Lets put some things into light that you consider and look at what is really happening.

1) You say that the majority of users of sim racing software use the G25/27.
2) Most users of the G25/27

Let's do some math (invalidated numbers are just for drawing a picture). There are million users of G25/27 and most of them are skilled as you said. Then a few is not - let say 10%. Then you have to provide additional support for 100 000 potential players. It's in the case they will ever ask for help. I can bet that 30-40% of them (40 000) will call your program 'crap' and you loose them. Another 60 000 will be asking for support, involving your time (money, energy).
Is it really worth it? IMO it isn not, especially if providing some helpers is cheap.
Ahh.. I forgot that some journalist may be a part of those unsatisfied 40 000 of customers. try to calc your looses.

And please note, I'm talking only about gains and looses. I'm not talking about general approach: trying to do my best, trying to foresee potential problems and minimize their appearance just to feel good.

I think MaXyM is underestimating the target audience for this project.

Maybe.. but

Anyone who is familiar with racing sims knows this

Newcomers are not familiar with racing sims!

Do we really want to be a market niche forever? Is it a goal? If you don't remember, this is one of reasons why dev teams are small and have no enough money for faster development, buying licences and so on.
Why to not be more open for new customers? Why to make entry into simracing word intentionally harder?
IMO simracing is about realistic simulation. Not about operating space shuttle, manipulating config files manually etc.
Easier entry for newcomers would be good for whole simracing community (including devs/publishers)

...and won't be, for this issue... As was already stated.

yes, I know it was stated. Thank you.
But I have feeling it wouldn't without community pressure.

 

[buddhatree]

IMO simracing is about realistic simulation. Not about operating space shuttle, manipulating config files manually etc.

You over exaggerate often to make a point which just makes you seem like you just want to argue.

1. You know it's just one line in the ini, but you are calling it the "space shuttle with multiple config files".

2. You know Tim has stated 6 times (or more) now that there will be a UI option, yet you continue to ignore that statement and carry on your argument.

3. You make it seem like the info needed is "hidden" somewhere on an underground message board, when it's right here in the Official forums, right at the top, as a sticky.

Yes, you just want to argue and imply things you know are not true.

I cannot imagine how frustrated you would be if rF2 was perfect in your eyes.... Nothing to complain about? I have no doubt that would upset you much much more than these things you are complaining about now.

 

[88mphTim]

...and all I can do is *facepalm*

 

[MarcG]

...and all I can do is *facepalm*

I'm convinced he's Shum94, remember him pre-beta? moaned about everything and argued for no reason before the game was even out....bit like Clark Kent but lacking the Superman!

 

[MaXyM]

1. You know it's just one line in the ini, but you are calling it the "space shuttle with multiple config files".
...
3. You make it seem like the info needed is "hidden" somewhere on an underground message board, when it's right here in the Official forums, right at the top, as a sticky.

Now I just know you don't even try to understand written word.
I'm talking about not experienced users. I have no problem with editing config or find information. But there are a lot of users who have. Count people who reports rattling without reading about filtering feature first. You will got an answer.

...and all I can do is *facepalm*

Now, please give infraction to your self. Just for this facepalm.
BTW You gave me one with comment:

you never cease to amaze me with what you can think and post

I really didn't imagine it may be given just because you are amazed.
Looks like you are free to give infraction for nothing. Fortunately you again proved who you are.

 

[Favio]

MaXyM are you menstruating 24x7??, you can't argue for everything, I don't want to read all people discussing with you, I wanna read news and comments about rF2...
Sorry guys, usually I only read, but this dude it's annoying.

 

[88mphTim]

That wasn't an infraction, that was negative feedback.

And, I have never, ever, given someone an infraction or negeative feedback for saying "facepalm".

I guess I'm going to have to switch gears, because you're starting to act badly here, like you want a fight. I'm not going to fight, but neither are you. Stop now.

 

[martymoose]

Newcomers are not familiar with racing sims!

Do we really want to be a market niche forever? Is it a goal? If you don't remember, this is one of reasons why dev teams are small and have no enough money for faster development, buying licences and so on.
Why to not be more open for new customers? Why to make entry into simracing word intentionally harder?
IMO simracing is about realistic simulation. Not about operating space shuttle, manipulating config files manually etc.
Easier entry for newcomers would be good for whole simracing community (including devs/publishers)

You likely haven't been around simracing very long, its a niche because that way it gives developers full control of their sim. If they go too mainstream and needing large budgets then they will need to make more compromises in the direction of the sim, they will need to target the largest possible audience. These arent people into sims so they will end up with just another arcade racer like all the others before and those that have sold out for bigger budgets. No offense but I think you may be much happier buying a playstation and a copy of Gran Turismo then RF2 going by your comments here.

Id love to see MaXyM purchase a real race car, then whine about how it isn't setup properly out of the box (or shipping container) and he needed to strain himself learning how to start it up which probably could have been done with a huge red button on the wheel instead. If one line in a config file is such an issue yet he'd rather write 500 lines complaining about how this is too hard for many to bother learning in an unreleased early beta version which will likely change as Tim has mentioned.

Its not like you need a hex editor and edit the .exe its a simple config file needing the extreme modding tool provided with windows, the notepad app