Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by vegaguy5555, Mar 7, 2019.
Long way to go and many fixes before it's a overall sim king.
I think "fix it already please" is getting a bit fruitless and only makes us all tired ^
I mean I don't say that it is perfect though pretty awesome. In fact I have pointed out a lot of things myself, that may or may not be useful. But simply repeating over same dull things that are well know and many of which developer even had responded to. Whats the use of that, does it have any feedback value, is there an interesting topic behind, or is it just primitive repeating ? Developers are working with great results so far.
In case of simulation I think rF2 is definitely a king. Recently ACC has threatened with state of the art wet track simulation, and still has to bring one important feature. rF2 still stands strong against it.
I've been on iRacing, AC, ACC, RaceRoom, PC2 for years and only recently decided to get RF2. And for the 30 hours I put almost immediately, it was due to how good the feel, physics and ffb is in RF2. In essence, it is so good that I've gotten addicted just to the physics. I totally agree RF2 is absolutely an amazing sim and needs to get more accolades or something to promote it more. I had no idea RF2 would be this awesome.
You should try AMS, you will feel something similar
What you said above as well as on other posts I've read is quite interesting. This gradual grip loss can and often is car dependent. However, in rF2 I notice that it's always there, even if less pronounced on some cars. It feels to me as something that is part of the base physics or tyre model, even though each individual mod can slightly tweak it.
On the other hand, in AC I almost don't feel this gradual grip loss, especially on GT3 cars. I've driven a lot of different cars in AC, from the MX-5 to GT3 and F1 cars and while I can get a very narrow yet gradual feel of the grip going away on the less powerful cars, the faster ones, in general, behave much more in a binary way, without gradient.
Thus, when playing AC, my mindset is usually to just set up the car to have understeer (mostly softening the rear ARB and suspension), because I simply don't have enough time to catch slides on powerful GT3 or F1 cars. I don't even dare to race a car with an oversteery setup. This limits my performance and crucially, my enjoyment, whereas in rF2 I can perfectly handle some degree of oversteer because I get all those cues about the grip gradient.
That being said, if I drive slightly slower cars in AC, like for instance the GT4 category, I do feel some gradient and can indeed cope with oversteering, although I'm not sure whether that's a matter of specific car physics or simply because I have more time to react because the car goes slightly slower through corners. But even so, it feels like a much more narrow gradient than what I get in rF2, which leads me to believe that it could be totally related to the tyre model.
What cars in AC would you say have a very gradual loss of grip?
I agree. Front wheels are not spinning faster then the road so they will remain grip unless the driver doesn't keep the wheels pointing in the same direction of travail. Also if you stop slipping the drive tires they will regain some grip depending on angle, which rF2 and AMS do well.
I find a real car more sensitive over all, which I can clearly see in this video.
I don't know. Narrow the gradient, and narrow is the reason, or combination of many reasons lol I'm just briefly interested in GT3 cars, was completely uninterested before ACC and buying GT3 cars from S397. Also we are different, our hardware is also a bit different.
To me AC definitely feels like it has some simplification that does this. Perhaps you could suspect something because caster is no where found to be adjustable in the game. Also in AC I feel like FFB is too active on oversteer and all cars are rather same in terms of that, slower cars does feel more progressive because they simply move slower, also they probably have tires that can take larger slip angles before peaking out, I guess. I used to participate in our local league with GT3 in AC, I took Mclaren it is probably hardest GT3 car there and oversteer is usual. Pretty much always it gets sideways at even slightest, FFB react all the way, I suppose it has very steep inversion in a steering SAT vs RearSlip curve (I reckon there should exist this type of curve), there is not much of space where FFB gets light, before it really starts winding up wheel into the slide. I'm just guessing that it could be the reason for lack of gradual feel there, maybe as steering reacts just too soon, you don't have a chance to get that rear end swimming feel as you should get no real telling from FFB but you'd see that something ain't really holding up, even though the sliding would happen just the same ? I think they have changed that for first ACC release, but too many disliked, after hotfix and a little bit of getting used to it was fine IMO Many just got used to simply let the FFB tell if car is oversteering and just quickly react to it sometimes maybe not even consciously anymore. When FFB got figuring a little less with "delay" as many said, I felt that it got quite progressive, even though it required significantly more focus to go very fast and significantly more steering in searching for right slip angle if you felt like things were going badly. Maybe there was something, maybe they just made GT3 more exciting than it is in reality, IDK. Thats a bit of conspiracy and a lot of guessing.
One iconic conversation I had with friend discussing same topci, I say:-"look the driver starts turning into a slide as soon as he realizes that rear end is lost" and he say "look steering wheel starts rotating as soon as rear end is in a slide", it is really matter of milliseconds if you should turn it, or just wait for it to turn and react to it ? I suppose it is problematic as different hardware has different reaction time as i was told, also input/output lag has an effect too.... maybe you could succeed to feel AC limit better if you just hold steering wheel without sqeezing it to let it move slightly more freely (works in all sims, all cars). Also check if your steering degrees match in simulation with your real steering input - super important, I frequently fail at that.
A lot other things affect progression of grip fall-off, also grip of the sliding rubber is also very important, it still has some grip even when sliding before it overheats badly. I am quite pleased about rF2 GT3, other than that IDK if drive force traction is realistic, if I can resist to turning it up, but maybe I just need to wear the tires more. There is really so much involved in cars dynamics, so much to learn, and everythin is connected. I think rF2 physics simply does more things, and does more things better that adds up well.
Continuing on AC as you asked about most progressive cars. IDK what are the most progressive ? Maybe Miura, Lotus 25, Ferrari 458 ? I also like the oldest cars most. F40, F1 GTR, 98T, C9 though not sure if they are most progressive. F40 was said by some to have "slow steering" though feels very sporty and quick to me, I like that, I feel more of a car driver, than FFB pilot, sometimes I steer into a slide before it even starts sliding, maybe thats why it seems slow steering for some, as I know that it 100% will, not sure if that fits to our sub-topic, but consider it progressive, RUF Yellowbird on the other hand definitely is not progressive.
Quote from another well known sim builders:
In a rear wheel drive car with tons of caster and big slicks at the front, there is no understeer to feel on the steering wheel. Heck you can't even feel understeer on a RWD car with street tyres and just around 4-5° of caster. Zero, none, nada.
If you have real life understeer feel from your FWD car, this is happening when you power understeer because the front tyres spin, but that is a specific situation in FWD cars.
^ Thats great knowledge. Stange how simracers wants to have all benefits from high caster and low caster in same car, you can't have it both. Suppose if high caster more oversteer response, low caster more understeer response.
Exactly. Though front and rear slip angles influence each other, thus in case if front is nearly fully sliding but still gripping up it may not have enough capacity to self align properly in response to rear end suddenly overturning ? It still should be possible to bring fronts back to safe slip angle without having inhuman reflexes, at least when not in very high speeds. Fish tailing should be quite common in all RWD cars, while good grip would still be remaining at the front.
Did a quick AI race yesterday after i got my new center monitor and saw the AI come up behind me due to drag but never passed. Isnt it possible to code so they pass? I know im going OT here and no doubt rF2 is at the top when it comes to many aspects of the sim, but it just got my senile brain thinking. Not wanting to start som AI bit**ing but just wondering if its not possible or maybe if its really hard to do well. The AI in many other aspects is really good.
Yet that bitching is almost sure to be what happens because you've posted... I'll not succumb to the temptation.
This new FXXK makes rF2 the king for me.
Isn't it ripped ?
mentioned countless times by myself and others. Reiza managed to fix it in AMS, even Raceroom ai pass like this now and even ACC does too.!. Somehow rf2 AI is being left alone for now, which makes rf2 offline racing not as great as once was.
'Ripped' or not, it can still drive and sound really, really well.
That is best and worst kind of ripped models at the same time
Best because it has quality. And worst because Ripped models with quality and effort makes them popular and sympathized.
But I don't say that it is ripped, just thought so.
I got it from the work shop.
Stop pretending that rF2 AI is much worse than AMS. Just to give you a little food for thought: I gave the FClassic in AMS a go today, to have some fun at Hockenheim 88, difficulty at 105% and low agression, wich should give me some good midfield action but in a realsitic way and some nice slip stream battles that are said to be good in AMS. I gave up after 10 restarts because the AI has basicly zero awareness of the player and drives in very erratic ways. I even got bumpdrafted at 300kph+ and I don't know how often I got rearended or banzaied, where I would think that a driver from that time would hold back to save his/her life - on the lowest possible agression. People can talk as much nonesense as they want, but it will allways be rF1 AI. On another note: it doesn't make much sense for me to play the game right now or to drive a champioship, because a) the AI is at a point where I can't go lower in agression and strength, otherwise I would just be having lonely races upfront and b) the AI is next to useless on some tracks, especialy the street tracks, where only 4 out of 30 drivers could make it to the end in the leadlap using the Stockcars leaving a sight of wrecked cars. Next time I should record some stuff, to show you that I am not pulling this out of thin air.
Don't think that's a guarantee for anything.
...and it's been mentioned countless times - by Studio397 themselves as well as others - that they are concentrating on the Multiplayer Comp System (etc) now and AI *may/will* come further down the line. You know this Dan as you've been told in Discord by Marcel himself
The RF2 AI is just the same now as it was 3 years ago which is Good and working mostly alright, again I'm collecting all reports and listing them in one huge ass document for S397 to peruse when the time is right, they may chose to ignore it they may not, it's up to them.
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