Rfactor 2 sliding behaviour

S

Slip_Angel

Registered
Hello, I wanted to discuss about how I feel about RF2 over the limit behaviour and how IMO it can be improved.
Ok so here is the basic image I created on tyre grip->>

tyre grip.png

okay so the area in focus should be orange one. What i'm basically trying to say by this is that "slightly over the limit area " (Not optimal BUT still FAST) is IMO little bit exploitable.
exploitable how ? well when you are driving in this area the car is sliding little bit like a 4 wheel drift BUT this region IMO is too big in RF2 i.e this 4 wheel drift thing is quite easy to initiate and maintain.
Please let me clarify that i DON'T think that this behaviour is wrong but i'm only saying that this behaviour is tad bit easy to achieve and can be used in "unrealistic" ways.
Oversteer in this area is what i find little bit unrealistic, here you can get the car rotating but you DON'T have to make steering correction.
here is a video demonstrating this ->>


As you can see i gained TONS of rotation without any steering opposite lock. from my observation this kind of rotation IRL is definitely followed by some steering wheel adjustments

Again i would like to point out that i don't think this state is unrealistic all i think i that this state is very easy to achieve, it should be made little bit smaller i.e. the rotation i showed you should not be possible with that little effort and inputs. In my mind if this was to be achieved IRL the driver would not only have to adjust throttle but for that degrees of rotation there SHOULD be opposite lock
Visualization of what i'm saying ->>

tyre grip1.png




P.S ->> please no hate, i'm not trolling. I want the same thing as you guys, most realistic driving physics.
 
doddynco said:
Quite hard to see what you're saying as in your video it appears to be using traction control?
Click to expand...
ZERO TC no assist used.
Edit: I never use TC in RF2 and that is what makes this behaviour even bigger problem.
It was very easy to do this without TC or any kind of assistance but with TC this would be piece of cake,literally anyone can do it.
 
Last edited:
I don't see all these people breaking lap records over lap records, so , the fact you don't crash in a barrier each turn doesn't make it "too easy".
Try a open wheeler, and try to say that this orange area is too wide. GT3 are gentlemen cars, they ARE "easy" to drive. Nobody want people killed on the track.
Buy SPA , break lap records of 2 seconds, then I will believe that orange area is too easy to manage.
 
Slip_Angel said:
ZERO TC no assist used.
Edit: I never use TC in RF2 and that is what makes this behaviour even bigger problem.
It was very easy to do this without TC or any kind of assistance but with TC this would be piece of cake,literally anyone can do it.
Click to expand...
Well that's fine because the car isn't oversteering in your clip. The car your driving is very forgiving too - it's designed that way so that when someone takes it to a track day they don't demolish it on turn 2.
 
It is possible that in the real life videos you have seen (as comparison on same car/corner), that the IRL video is much more on the limit (near the right end of your wide orange bar), so the real life driver is visibly using both gas and steering to prevent a full-on spin. In your sample video, minor throttle adjustments are good enough to keep the car in check without needing steering corrections in parallel.

You could say this is same speed or thereabouts of what you see in real-life videos, so they should be at least similar. But we also do not know other track conditions and car configuration, so for the same speed and steering angles (assuming you are using same the vehicle's steering limits), your video might not be on the same limit as a real life scene.

It is also possible that whereas you choose to use throttle to control the yaw and keep your arms calm, the pro drivers prefer to keep their foot planted and use quick steering motions to calm the car.

Maybe this is just to make us all feel like a hero on the GT3 cars also (far more than how GT3s are already considered 'easy' in real life). They tend to be easy to drive fast and hold at some limit. Whether rF2 is real or not is very hard to say without a real life experienced GT3 driver chiming in (unless you are one, btw, in which case what you say is more relevant than mine).
 
doddynco said:
Well that's fine because the car isn't oversteering in your clip. The car your driving is very forgiving too - it's designed that way so that when someone takes it to a track day they don't demolish it on turn 2.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry but you have to watch carefully, it is hard to see but i actually oversteered out of apex.
Watch kerbs maybe that will help, i know i oversteer hence i decided to post this thread.
 
likes_simracing said:
It is possible that in the real life videos you have seen (as comparison on same car/corner), that the IRL video is much more on the limit (near the right end of your wide orange bar), so the real life driver is visibly using both gas and steering to prevent a full-on spin. In your sample video, minor throttle adjustments are good enough to keep the car in check without needing steering corrections in parallel.

You could say this is same speed or thereabouts of what you see in real-life videos, so they should be at least similar. But we also do not know other track conditions and car configuration, so for the same speed and steering angles (assuming you are using same the vehicle's steering limits), your video might not be on the same limit as a real life scene.

It is also possible that whereas you choose to use throttle to control the yaw and keep your arms calm, the pro drivers prefer to keep their foot planted and use quick steering motions to calm the car.

Maybe this is just to make us all feel like a hero on the GT3 cars also (far more than how GT3s are already considered 'easy' in real life). They tend to be easy to drive fast and hold at some limit. Whether rF2 is real or not is very hard to say without a real life experienced GT3 driver chiming in (unless you are one, btw, in which case what you say is more relevant than mine).
Click to expand...
Thank you for kind response.
You are correct that comparing this to IRL while we don't have track condition data , setup data etc is not 100% accurate
BUT this video is just a demonstration of overall car handling in RF2, this is regardless of what corner, track conditions and maybe even setup.
The point i was trying to make is that i feel like i can get tad bit more rotation out of the car without engaging opposite lock.
This is not my driving style as well, I deliberately oversteer out of that corner in such a manner that i get decent oversteer but no opposite lock needed, IMO is little bit unrealistic.
Of course this is not fastest way (or i hope it is not) BUT this is kind of like get out of jail free card.
This kind of behaviour should be more on knief's edge but as you can see i managed to do it quite easily on first try.

Edit: Its GTE car btw, just to be clear but i think this whole behaviour is true for all cars with new tyre model.
 
Slip_Angel said:
Thank you for kind response.
You are correct that comparing this to IRL while we don't have track condition data , setup data etc is not 100% accurate
BUT this video is just a demonstration of overall car handling in RF2, this is regardless of what corner, track conditions and maybe even setup.
The point i was trying to make is that i feel like i can get tad bit more rotation out of the car without engaging opposite lock.
This is not my driving style as well, I deliberately oversteer out of that corner in such a manner that i get decent oversteer but no opposite lock needed, IMO is little bit unrealistic.
Of course this is not fastest way (or i hope it is not) BUT this is kind of like get out of jail free card.
This kind of behaviour should be more on knief's edge but as you can see i managed to do it quite easily on first try.

Edit: Its GTE car btw, just to be clear but i think this whole behaviour is true for all cars with new tyre model.
Click to expand...
I think to judge if it is realitstic would be something for Motec and comparing it with telemetry of a real car. I too have the feeling that rF2 allows for a tad too much slip angle, but your video doesn't show anything wierd tbh. Don't forget that track and ambient temps have no effect yet either. Next to that it can be very car dependend and it's hard to go by a single car and say this is right or this is wrong. The Porsche GT3R for example is very delicate in such situations and requires a quick hand at places like Flugplatz where the rear end get's light and starts rotating. It's allmost allways a brown pants moment. :p

Especialy after watching Ermins video I think that the Ferrari is just very stable in general, but the question is if his sliding and roasting tires would get him anywhere over a longer stint. But this isn't anything I would worry too much about without technical details. You have this in every sim. In AC you can smash the Z4 around corners while the MP4/12C is very difficult to handle at turn in. Same for the Lambo in ACC while the R8 is a walk in the park. The 488 and the Acura drive like a dream in PC2, while the 911 or the M6 are a nightmare. It is what it is - very different sims with very different car concepts.
 
I observed it closely before I made that comment. :) I wanted to comment on what I saw in the video, but realized you were asking about the 'width' of the comfortable zone and the apparent ease of surviving an oversteer. So my comment was more about how similar is your oversteer moment vs an oversteer moment for an IRL video for comparison.

On your video, past the apex, you control your throttle to manage the slide and unwind your steering slightly (but the steering change happens after most of the oversteer has died down). A pro real life driver might do something different, like keep the throttle fully planted, but take multiple opposite lock to settle the back. Or adjust throttle AND adjust steering to calm down the car faster so it is flatter earlier and get back to accelerating. You might also be an completely different car state, so even at the same oversteering situation, the IRL driver you saw might have much larger momentum to manage, so more wheel adjustments.

It is also possible (and this is very likely the reason) that IRL pro-drivers are instinctively trained to make rapid, visible adjustments on the steering at any hint of oversteer (I see this all the time on onboards), so they would look much more busy than normal sim people, for the same situation (some of these because we can't detect all those little seat/inertia signals in a sim). They are more tuned to those oversteer/understeer moments and do not want those things to build up. In other words, the difference in busy-ness might not be a good measure of easy-ness or unrealistic oversteer.

I bet that if you asked a real life driver to consciously NOT react using the steering (or no opposite lock), but only adjust throttle like you did, you would also see something like what you have.

That's all I can say on this topic.
 
This is a discussion worth having... this and how hard we can take curb (even off-track) without much consequences.

The grip around the limite isn't that far tough... and among the best... still, we have some sluggish behavior and a bit too forgiving overall... basically the fastest guys drift a lot.
It's not like there is no room for improvement.

I don't think grip should necessarily 1to1 with reality, having said that... there is something to be said about trying to compensate the lack of feeling... but again rf2, and most of the sims... tend to bend a tad too much on the easier side... mainly because of Comante sarcastic comments :)
 
I was also going to add that, based on my own onboards :) , with the number of steering corrections I make handling oversteer in one corner, that rF2 is very realistic.

Just a joke, but a point to mean we can make exactly opposite views on the same thing by using onboard busy-ness.

[I do have a bunch of GT3/GTE videos with my busy hands (to I make myself feel good that I am a cool driver like the real life people). I posted some on reddit recently.]
 
Slip_Angel said:
Of course this is not fastest way (or i hope it is not) BUT this is kind of like get out of jail free card.
This kind of behaviour should be more on knief's edge but as you can see i managed to do it quite easily on first try.
Click to expand...

I know exactly what you mean and agree on this general point. I threw the GTE cars are very high speed in Kyalami76's long corners and do not lose it completely, on first try on each GTE cars. The AIs have no chance!

But at some point the simulation reaches a limit on parameters to model in real-time.
 
Kahel said:
I don't think grip should necessarily 1to1 with reality, having said that... there is something to be said about trying to compensate the lack of feeling
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with you. Just wanted to add that if S397 does, we will then get comments like "rF2 is not really the pure road feel they say it is. It is adding canned effects to communicate grip and road surface nuance. Look, with ACC, the feeling is less detailed and more numb, but that's because they do not add fake effects." I promise I have seen words to this effect somewhere recently.

I read the AMS2 log for their last update. They used the word "enhance" the sensation of grip or something like that. Not improve, which might mean a bug fix or better mathematical model, but enhance to help players feel grip levels (that people loved in AMS1).
 
hitm4k3r said:
I think to judge if it is realitstic would be something for Motec and comparing it with telemetry of a real car. I too have the feeling that rF2 allows for a tad too much slip angle, but your video doesn't show anything wierd tbh. Don't forget that track and ambient temps have no effect yet either. Next to that it can be very car dependend and it's hard to go by a single car and say this is right or this is wrong. The Porsche GT3R for example is very delicate in such situations and requires a quick hand at places like Flugplatz where the rear end get's light and starts rotating. It's allmost allways a brown pants moment. :p

Especialy after watching Ermins video I think that the Ferrari is just very stable in general, but the question is if his sliding and roasting tires would get him anywhere over a longer stint. But this isn't anything I would worry too much about without technical details. You have this in every sim. In AC you can smash the Z4 around corners while the MP4/12C is very difficult to handle at turn in. Same for the Lambo in ACC while the R8 is a walk in the park. The 488 and the Acura drive like a dream in PC2, while the 911 or the M6 are a nightmare. It is what it is - very different sims with very different car concepts.
Click to expand...
Yea, having real data and testing would be perfect. Good points made overall. while RF2 is literally the only sim i play now, i do hope they concentrate less on content(Although i love them very much) and start making new cool physics changes, some of which you mentioned above.
There is definitely room for improvement in physics department.
 
likes_simracing said:
It is also possible (and this is very likely the reason) that IRL pro-drivers are instinctively trained to make rapid, visible adjustments on the steering at any hint of oversteer (I see this all the time on onboards), so they would look much more busy than normal sim people
Click to expand...
You actually got it right, i see onboards and these drivers are making small but fast changes.
This kind of hand movement are there in RF2 but very very small amounts.
 
likes_simracing said:
I don't disagree with you. Just wanted to add that if S397 does, we will then get comments like "rF2 is not really the pure road feel they say it is. It is adding canned effects to communicate grip and road surface nuance. Look, with ACC, the feeling is less detailed and more numb, but that's because they do not add fake effects." I promise I have seen words to this effect somewhere recently.

I read the AMS2 log for their last update. They used the word "enhance" the sensation of grip or something like that. Not improve, which might mean a bug fix or better mathematical model, but enhance to help players feel grip levels (that people loved in AMS1).
Click to expand...
I hate canned effects not gonna lie.
I hope this behaviour i talked about is not because of canned effects.
But i will definitely take a sim that is closer to IRL.
 
Slightly off topic
Does anyone know what kind of tyre model are used in simulators ?
If i remember correctly RF2 uses physical based model (i think i got the name wrong)
ACC used emperical model
What model is SETA ? it is used in AMS2.
 
It depends on many parameters. If you open a tgm file you will see many numbers, so you can set them to reduce that orange zone you talk about. It can be tuned with suspension and aerodynamics, too.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top