Rfactor 2 future: Should we (or just I) be worried?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Christos Segkounas, Jun 28, 2017.

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  1. Christos Segkounas

    Christos Segkounas Registered

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    Don't know about you guys but I have been noticing a shift towards cars being more manageable to drive.
    FR3.5 and F2 low speed FFB has now moved away from what we were told was realistically light steering at low speeds to cater for people's complaints.
    There are reports about the ISI Formula now being easier to drive.
    Same for F2.
    Apex GT3 Camaro, stable, understeery car.
    ISI Camaro, oversteery beast.
    So looking at the most popular 3rd party mods, it seems that realism has been put on the back burner in favor of gameplay.
    But 3rd party mods are one thing, official mods quite another.
    Remember what made us love RF2.
    Realistic physics, hardcore.
    For me the Radical expected to be out in the near future is going to be a defining moment for the game.
    I will know then which route Studio 397 have decided to take.
    I do not expect to be able to drive an F1 car outright.
    Maybe I can and maybe I can't, it's F1, it's supposed to be damn hard to drive, even to keep on the road.
    Every race car you get into you should have to approach with respect and even fear.
    You wouldn't get into a race car for the first time and stomp on the throttle, you'd go around slowly at first and try to get a feel for it.
    Just like a real racing driver.
    And it can turn out to be a real handful, that means you have to take your time to adjust and use your head on how to tame it.
    Which kid would do that though, they see this as a game, not a sim.
    Developers need people to get involved, I can understand that, they need to make a profit, they have lives and families and goals and dreams and every right to all of these.
    And people got scared away by the FR3.5, even though it is a truly fantastic car, that's not what you want.
    I'm in the minority, I want to be challenged as a driver.
    I want to get that feeling when I jump into a car, any car, that it will try to kill me and that I have to act like a real driver coming out of the pits, slowly build into it and try to be the one in control at all times.
    Do not expect to be able to jump into something and go drifting.
    So maybe you guys at Studio 397 can make the sim great and popular but not forget about us.
    We exist.
    This is not supposed to be a rant, but feedback.
    Thanks.
     
  2. patchedupdemon

    patchedupdemon Registered

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    Could it be the baseline setups were adjusted,I haven't driven any cars and not been here long enough to notice what you speak of.
    I agree things shouldn't be easy,but also hard doesn't mean realistic also.
     
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  3. pascom

    pascom Registered

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  4. Nitrometh

    Nitrometh Registered

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    Sometimes the truth is, that some cars aren't that extreme to drive.
    I talked to a swiss lmp and amg gt3 driver several times in Hockenheim.
    I thought this cars should be brutal to drive and you have to be very very careful with your input.
    He said the most brutal of the lmp cars is the acceleration during braking and in corners. But these cars are kept as easy as possible, because during 24h races drivers don't want cars which can kill you for every tiny mistake.
    But tbh I don't know how it's about Formula cars.
     
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  5. Christos Segkounas

    Christos Segkounas Registered

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    Yes, I do not understand "hard" as being realistic by default.
    But I do understand the fastest and purpose-built racecars as being hard to drive to the limit also by default.
    They are supposed to be challenging their drivers otherwise everyone would be doing pretty much the same lap times.
    Cars aimed at endurance racing do have a lot of aids to help drivers of course, that doesn't mean they can be thrown around with reckless abandon.
    I would be very happy if this "shift" I have mentioned in my OP is all in my head, very happy indeed.
    I do not expect positive feedback for what I have posted, I expect clarification, so to speak.
     
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  6. demerzel

    demerzel Registered

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    F2:
    Added chassis flex.
    Added new steering system
    Wheel rate correction
    Softened chassis
    New engine throttle map
    Correction to low downforce package to add stability
    Full CPM tyre upgrade

    These are substantial changes. CPM and chassis flex two major new feature to the car. It's no surprise that it's handling differently.
    Cars with CPM tires was always easier to drive than cars without CPM.

    "I do not expect to be able to drive an F1 car outright.
    Maybe I can and maybe I can't, it's F1, it's supposed to be damn hard to drive, even to keep on the road."

    Why don't you? You are playing these kinds of games for years, isn't it? In f2 a misstep on the throttle and your car spin out. Seems pretty realistic to me.
     
  7. Christos Segkounas

    Christos Segkounas Registered

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    Stability or realism?

    No, I have been gaming for 31 years but Microprose F1 back in 92 and Grand Turismo don't fall into the same category as sim racing that I have been involved with for only a few months, got to know the ISI cars and now I get to know the Studio 397 cars as well and I have been noticing a worrying trend.
     
  8. demerzel

    demerzel Registered

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    Sim racing is a term what sim racers like to use to justify the cost they spend on video games. These are video games. These games at best realistic. These never will be real.

    Are you involved with rF2 with a few months only? And you already noticing a worrying trend? Interesting. Have you checked out the USF2000 too? It's a scratch built s397 car. How do you feel about it? Or the other Nissan GT500. Another scratch built S397 car.

    The upcoming radical car is a track day car I believe. It won't kill you.

    I'm involved in sim racing for a few years now. And I can tell you that as a fact that developers keep changing how the car handling all the time. F2 and F3.5 got a big update. S397 added previously missing features. For example the chassis flex.

    If you don't like how they are handling go into the setup screen and set up the car differently. Even if you just alter the tire pressure the FFB should reflect that.......

    "Stability or realism?"

    So are you saying that you can't tune a car for stability in real life and by tuning a car for stability is not realistic?
     
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  9. Christos Segkounas

    Christos Segkounas Registered

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    You can't tell a difference between setup tuning and tampering with physics?
    How about you go and drive the ISI Camaro and then drive the APEX Camaro that is supposedly the exact same car.
    They drive completely differently because the physics numbers have been tampered with to quiet the car down.
    The setup transfers from one car to the other, numbers are exactly the same, behavior of the car is like night and day.
    Of course that is a 3rd party mod but that is a fine example to differentiate between things you seem to be confusing in your post?
    I do not care about the first (setup) , I do care about the latter (physics).
    So if you think everything is fine then so be it, I'd be happy to get some feedback from the devs themselves.
     
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  10. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    A 'correction' shouldn't be assumed to be a damping down of physics. To me it sounds like the low downforce package was unrealistically unstable.

    As for the F2 steering (at least), the default option is higher caster to help feeling on cheaper wheels, but the realistic option is still there.
     
  11. Christos Segkounas

    Christos Segkounas Registered

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    A single correction is not assumed to be anything other than it claims.
    I look at patterns and the overall picture and have noticed a shift.
    I would, at some point, appreciate some feedback from the devs.
    In particular, a candid response, even a diplomatic one because I can usually easily read through the lines and that even would be enough for me.
     
  12. demerzel

    demerzel Registered

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    http://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/apex-modding-fia-gt3.2496/update?resource_update_id=8028

    "- Michael Borda tweaked the Camaro GT3 ISI physics."

    Even in the first release, it was already different than the ISI car. :p

    On top of that they b.o.p all car.

    And later on "- Every car received new, scratch built chassis flex file, made with the ISI tool" http://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/apex-modding-fia-gt3.2496/update?resource_update_id=11578

    I guess they tweaked the car further in the other patches.
     
  13. Christopher Elliott

    Christopher Elliott Registered

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    Our goal is always 'realism'. We use the most amount of real data possible, and have a highly advanced tire model. Cars have evolved since the early days, so you really can't compare because many of those do not or did not have the CPM tire.
    We take no steps to make a car harder or easier to drive for that matter, we use data and testing for our results.
    Add to that the Test Team are all hardcore experienced simracers, if something isn't right they speak up - we are grateful for their feedback.

    Hope that answers some of your questions :)
     
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  14. bwana

    bwana Registered

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    You can relate the difference in cars to various videos of Martin Brundle and others driving various F1 cars from the 90's to the newer gen 2006 Ferrari for example . He is some one who is lucky enough to have driven both and does have some skill. There are numerous other high profile drivers who have driven both and shared their thoughts on video. One common factor is how well the newer cars drive and how seemingly effortless they are to get around circuit ( all be it as they admit so much faster through corners, how? down force , mechanical grip and tires)and how well they brake and how stable they are under braking by comparison to what they describe as raw beast from their own time at the top of motorsport development in eras gone. I love driving the beasts , those that ARE harder whether realistic or not , they require more concentration ,more patience and more skill as a simracer . if that's not realistic so be it but to me that's what I look for in simracing. I agree we don't want cars to be unrealistically easier jus for the sake of sales ,but saying that we are not potential game buyers ,in other words future income.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
  15. Christos Segkounas

    Christos Segkounas Registered

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    Thank you all for the answers, and Christopher for the clarification, I appreciate all the feedback in this thread and,yes, was good to be reminded that the team are actually on the same page:)
     
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  16. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    stuff doesn't feel as though it's being dumbed down is it?

    ( i've only really been using histories )
     
  17. Tackset

    Tackset Registered

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    Are you saying that unrealistic harder is OK?
     
  18. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

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    Oh the good old mentality of "if it's not hard it's not a sim"
     
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  19. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    I like hard , after acquiring the skill of control it's way more immersive

    Track days I've done (to be fairly quick) have also been very hard
    So yes hard to me is realistic

    There's lots of arcade style titles out there if one prefers the more mindless easier experience , fewer sims (harder) titles unfortunately
     
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  20. Stan

    Stan Registered

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    Could it be the "Reiza shadow"... Niels give square numbers/physics and Renato adapt it to playability, marketing, then in the end to the sells... does all the sim's are going to go simcade to find more audience (and money)?
    More, they cleverly use the old "real simracer""community" to make the viral marketing (sitting on a strong and long reputation acquired in these forums/community), then they finally head (more or less) to simcade... a bit like Kunos did... "maybe"!?!
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
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