Rfactor 2 Beta - A comprehensive constructive review.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by hiohaa, Jan 15, 2012.

  1. hiohaa

    hiohaa Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    135
    Likes Received:
    6
    After extensively playing Rf2 the last few days, I want to write this massive post, covering every single aspect of Rf2.

    Physics
    There has been a lot of debate about the handling of the cars, especially at the rear. I was highly critical of this at first. For those of you who are using Fanatec Porsche wheels – I’d advise you to throw them away and get a Logitech wheel...

    I should justify the above statement – I had a g25, and bought a Fanatec gt3 rs v2 wheel in anticipation of Rf2, my excitement for the game was bursting out of every orifice (sometimes literally). However the Fanatec wheel does not rotate as freely as a G25, and simply does not allow you to react quickly enough to the flood of FFB information coming from RF2. At first, I thought this was the games fault, and not my wheel – then I did back to back tests with my G25. With the g25 I could literally dance with the megane, and could drive the FRenault with no problems at all. With the Fanatec, I felt myself getting into tail slappers and drifting all over the place, because you couldn’t make precise small movements with the Fanatec. (And yes, I had Fanatec set up as free as possible, 05 on drift mode).The clubsport pedals however – are brilliant – a very useful addition, and allow you to be MUCH more precise on braking. I advise anyone to upgrade the pedals.

    So – I just wanted to get that out the way.

    Simracing games have always been harder than real life. This is because you don’t get as much information going to your body as you do in real life. To prove this, as objectively as possible, I’ve posted 2 videos of me driving. Track conditions were oily and wet – it had stopped raining for about 3 hours by the time we got on track – and this was on a very cold November morning. It was damp and slippy everywhere. Both cars were on slicks, and these are a link to the cars:

    http://www.palmersport.com/palmerjaguarjp-LM.aspx
    http://www.palmersport.com/formulajaguar.aspx

    You will notice how sideways I can get the cars, whilst still maintaining speed.

    JPLM video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=his6nXTkBYA

    At 0:06 – I am sideways at fairly low speed, yet can feel enough to keep my foot flat to the floor, bouncing off the rev limiter, and using the steering to counter steer. You cannot do this in any sim game.
    AT 1:50 – I get the car very sideways again, approaching 80mph (about 130 kph). Bear in mind this is on slicks, on a damp track with wet patches everywhere. Yet I could still maintain the speed
    At 2:04 – this shows what low speed grip is really like, and how progressive it is. I’m fighting the car through the hairpin, go wide on the exit onto an even less grippy surface, yet can still apply full throttle and control with steering. It is impossible to do this in Rf2, and very difficult in netkar pro.
    AT 3:19 – again controlling at high speed, notice the amount of fine adjustments I’m making to try and maintain the speed through the corner. It was so slippery that these adjustments were needed if you weren’t scared and were going for lap time.
    Formula Jag video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--yX8vrlLmI
    At 0:19 – so this is the single seater, in the morning when track conditions were at their worst. At this point in the video, you can see me get this thing completely sideways – look how much counter steer I’m putting into the wheel, whilst still being able to maintain speed. This is a great example of truly how progressive the rear-end is on real race cars, and on any car for that matter.

    So what’s the point of me showing you all this?

    - It proves that there are some aspects of Rf2 that are superb. The feeling from the FFB allows me to, at high speed, control the rear with small precise movements.
    - RF2 is still way more difficult than real life – because in real life you have feeling coming through your bum, your body, the g-forces and the balance in your ears.
    - The low speed grip in RF2 is fundamentally flawed. In this aspect it is still similar to Rf1. AS the videos show, the lower the speed the more grip you should have! In real life, the slower you are going, the harder it is to turn the steering wheel, and the weightier it feels. You can feel a ‘block of grip’. There is nothing like this in Rf2.
    - It is not just rf2, but in all Sims, you cannot dream of being able to go full throttle, so you’re bouncing off the rev limiter, spinning the rear tyres, coming out a low speed corner and counter steer, without spinning out. In real life, you can do this easily, as the videos show. In fact it’s not hard to find this being demonstrated in F1, over and over – especially at Monza coming out the chicanes.

    In conclusion – I think the physics at high speed are excellent. I can balance the cars with a combination of all the 3 things (brake, throttle, steering) like I can in real life. The low speed grip however is still way off the mark.

    FFB

    Oversteer: Rf2 conveys this very well. It feels ‘meaty’ in oversteer, and, especially with the megane, you can get some drifts going. Points where in RF1, you would not make the corner as you’d slip out – with RF2, you can rely on your instincts, drive off the feel, and literally go round the apex sideways and still straighten it up. Sometimes when I’m completely sideways, the FFB has allowed me to make massive oversteer corrections, sometimes having to remove 1 hand in order to turn the wheel enough the other way, but sub-consciously. The weight transfer FFB is conveyed much stronger, and much more precisely than in any other game – I’d say it’s on par with netkar pro, but a better feel of ‘texture’ in the tyres.

    Understeer: This is an area where all simgames suck. This becomes most apparent driving the 60’s grand prix cars at Spa. Because there is Zero feel of front tyre grip, you have to ‘learn the game’. Learn the entry speeds for every corner. If you’re outside the threshold, you understeer off. Inside it, and you’ve taken the corner too slow. In real life you can specifically feel understeer in your hands. It comes across as a kind of pulsing slow vibration, a feeling that the front tyres are starting to ‘scrub’, ‘wash out’ against the surface of the tarmac. In Rf2 (and in all simgames) there is no information of any kind conveyed for front-end grip.

    I noticed in RF2, in the FRenault cars, if you turn in more than the front wheels allow – the steering goes slightly lighter. This is very similar to the FFB in the Sabin games, in that respect. This is at least a step to conveying the hint of some understeer, though it’s very subtle and ultimately unnoticeable when driving with slight aggressiveness. I wish that they would program into the FFB maybe some sort of vibration to convey front-tyre-slip. This would be the single biggest improvement in the game, and make it absolutely amazing to drive, as you could finally, on feel alone, turn into the corner, knowing how much grip there is available, without having to learn anything.

    Braking: The feeling you get braking is excellent in rfactor. You’ll notice in the videos I posted, under hard braking into the 1st corner, I am making adjustments to the wheel constantly right up to the apex, as I can feel the load transfer shift from front to back as the speed drops. I find myself making similar corrections in RF2.

    SO that’s the 2 most important aspects of any simracing game out the way. How about the rest?
     
  2. hiohaa

    hiohaa Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    135
    Likes Received:
    6
    Graphics – a pleasant surprise. After seeing the WIP videos, I was disappointed, but they really don’t do it justice. The textures and the skybox (which, my games designer friend tells me, is a dynamic skybox?) are wonderful. In estoril, it really feels like you can see mountains in the distance.

    It’s the small things, like the reflections on the windscreen, the number of track assets so you can pick out braking points easier, that make the graphics step up to another level.

    The transition from day to night is incredible. The fact that its TRUE pitch black night time, just like in NFS shift 2 (the only thing good about that game...) means night driving at Lemans will be incredible in this. I’m so pleased that they decided to do ‘proper lighting’. The implementation of weather is a huge step forwards but it doesn’t seem finished yet. Is it as good as Project CARS? Probably not. But it’s certainly good enough.

    Although not as sophisticated as Cars or some of the other games on the market the raw fundamentals of the graphics engine, especially the transitions from day to night or clear to rainy make the game especially immersive FAR more than fancy lighting shaders can do, in the beta it seems that this system is still undergoing a lot of work but we can already see something that has real potential and will definitely feel right even as newer games come out with more gimmicky graphics.

    The headlights are nowhere near as powerful enough compared to reality:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm7387JN-Sk
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xox99T8_Xo0&feature=related

    The headlights in real life project much further and illuminate more of the surroundings so you can pick up braking points. In RF2 the headlights seem to project out about 4metres...
    Due to the dynamic weather I think having an intelligent pit crew as an option would be great where they automatically put on wet tires for you instead of having to select them as you drive.

    Sounds – I think this is an area which needs some of the biggest improvements. The underlying sound engine is a vast improvement over RF1. The external engine sounds are nice, as they always have been in Rf1. The internal engine sounds though still aren’t up to standard – but then again they aren’t in any simgame. It is not just the basic sound of the engine revs, but all the other things – the whine of the transmission, the explosions and spluttering you here. Above all this however is BASS. It’s missing bass, in all the cars. All the cars sound like you’re driving an electric vehicle. Some of the ambient sounds are comically bad (the rain, the helicopter). I fear that this is an area which will be completely neglected though. The sounds are worst in the Frenault 3.5 car. I don’t really have to say anything else here to prove my point, accept to link you to an onboard vid of a Frenault and megane trophy car.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFTNlNRif8w
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG6n1IMSWMU

    As you can hear...it’s almost the polar opposite of RF2. Please ISI – improving the sounds would make the experience so much more immersive. This is an area, which if you improved it, would make this game outstanding. Or (as I’m sure you’re busy with other things) – at least tell the modding community that these sounds are possible to replicate in the game, with a talented sound artist.

    The core sound engine definitely seems advanced ( full surround support, proper exhaust and splutter sounds corresponding to fuel mix , the excellent buffeting shock absorber sounds as you go over curbs sideways , that muffled sound you hear inside, the skid sounds are especially good)

    However the Raw engine sounds of the engine itself are a real letdown, the 60s cars and the megane are fine on a basic level but the F3.5 sounds like a Smart car. I think the key aspects that are missing are bass and real grunt. I assume it’s something to do with the way the sound engine works and once artists get a real chance to play with it and work with sounds we might hear something more meaty.

    User interface – it’s adequate. RF1’s UI was truly awful, but it performed the functions required and when you’re driving....a UI is the last thing on your mind. So I won’t provide much feedback here. What I will say is the resolution of the message-centre box needs drastically improving – and users should also be given a choice as to where they want it placed. It would be nice if there was an option to place it at the top of the screen, and for the Information centre box, for the car, to be placed back at the bottom, ala RF1 – so it’s in line with the dashboard. Having to look upwards to the information box means you cannot really see the track in your peripheral.

    Multiplayer
    The multiplayer filter options need work – you should be able to find any server by name, by typing in part of the server name. You should be able to save servers to favourites. Also the model which is used when someone else joins the game looks like a giant block of cheese with wheels. Can this not be replaced with a model that is good enough that it can at least blend in? A placeholder car that looked like a normal car but was painted yellow would at least not break the immersion if you come across it on the track.

    There needs to be a default lower vote value so users in a server can vote next session more easily. In Rf1 it was often the case servers got stuck and it was then impossible for users on the server to get enough votes to do anything. In rf2 already there have been many times when you get 8 votes but still need 2 more and it falls through.

    As a default I think:
    1-5 players (2 votes to change) 5-10 (4 votes to change) 10-20 (7 votes to change) 20-30 (10 votes to change) – so you can see it’s not a linear percentage of votes required.
    Having it like this is because the more users a server has, the more you tend to have idol users.

    Final conclusion
    I fully understand that this is a beta – a very early beta at best. Things like the weather affects are clearly not finished (there seems to be a lot of grip in the wet relative to dry...). The massive amount of rattle and vibration I get through my G25 when going onto the grass – is almost like a punishment. I have done the things advised in the sticky thread, but it still feels like my wheel is going to grind itself apart.

    I believe the fundamentals of RF2 are in place to make it a truly great game, the underlying foundations are there for this game to reach its potential over another 5 years of rfactor gaming...if the improvements ive stated in this thesis can be made.

    About me – many years of simracing experience, going back to the F1 Grand Prix days (what happened to Geoff Crammond?). I also have real world experience and have driven in corporate days radical-speed type cars on slicks, as well as single seaters on slicks (which were faster than formula fords, had downforce, slower than formula Renaults) and have been fastest in a few scholarships making it to the finals. I currently race in FSR f1 also, in the sim world. I mainly drive open wheelers...after an f1 car, everything else just seems too slow (though I thought the first game by Simbin, GTR, was a masterpiece, as was grand prix legends).
     
  3. CdnRacer

    CdnRacer Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,894
    Likes Received:
    31
    Use the drift setting on your fanatec wheel. It reduces the "weight" of the wheel and allows your to react quicker.
     
  4. hiohaa

    hiohaa Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    135
    Likes Received:
    6
    i did that.. as ive put in the post.
     
  5. CdnRacer

    CdnRacer Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,894
    Likes Received:
    31
    You seriously didn't think I was going to read that whole post did you? lol. I'm not being a jerk, I'm just showing my lack of reading skills here. :p
     
  6. Jameswesty

    Jameswesty Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2012
    Messages:
    533
    Likes Received:
    14
    yep

    sums it up !

    The more time I spend on it the more fun I'm having I think Rf2 is quite a ruff beta ( not an issue) but you can tell that the base ingredeants are there for something that will be built on and is fundamentally a gr8 starting platform.
     
  7. FIREWIRE

    FIREWIRE Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    +1 (setting drift @2 worked very well for me)

    Congrats to ISI team on the FFB (standout highlight of the beta for me so far)
     
  8. Duvel

    Duvel Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2011
    Messages:
    332
    Likes Received:
    22
    Excellent review, one that ISI should probably have a meeting about just on it's own. Pretty much everything you said is bang on, from critical things like better feeling for understeer, down to refinements for the user interface. Bravo.
     
  9. BobDobbs

    BobDobbs Registered

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    84
    Likes Received:
    21
    Spot on. This is the biggest problem GPL had; trying to drive the car at low speeds was totally unrealistic due to tire and grip issues. I'm not sure if this is a tire model issue with rF2, or something related to their modeling of the slip curves. But it does need work, whether by changing the tire values or altering the modeling.

    I suggested in another thread that perhaps ISI needs to endorse or provide a standard steering model architecture so that all mods can benefit from the same FFB core algorithms, while allowing tweaking for individual car characteristics. They're closing in on the FFB but having something akin to RealFeel which requires a compatible steering mechanic would be very cool.

    This is primarily the samples, though, right? Not a design problem. But I agree - in a race car (especially a 60s Formula) you're battered with all kinds of noise: engine, transmission, wind, road/tire. Anything which makes these sounds more intense and potentially invasive can only bring you closer to the true experience. I don't agree that the helicopter and rain sounds are so bad; but what is missing is the sound of rain impact on the car. That is probably in the queue, along with the raindrop graphics.
     
  10. Nick88

    Nick88 Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2012
    Messages:
    46
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think that is about spot on. Long but excellent post and covers everything for comprehensively.

    Great job.
     
  11. RafBR

    RafBR Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Messages:
    155
    Likes Received:
    5
    I just wanted to add a note about graphics: I think it is already better than CARS because of the dinamic weather (CARS does not have it, right?). Another thing I've noticed is that the CARS promotional videos probably were made with the best video card available for sure, because here at home (ATI6790) I can't get that quality. rF2 have the same quality or even more if you max it out with motion blur and everything else.
    Once you compared rF2 graphics with CARS I could be silly and compare their physics.:cool:

    well done review anyway!
    best regards to all,
    rafael.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 15, 2012
  12. UOPshadow

    UOPshadow Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2012
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    3
    Excellent review. Spot on in every aspect!
     
  13. coops

    coops Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2011
    Messages:
    1,680
    Likes Received:
    9
    congrats on a great review
     
  14. WallyM

    WallyM Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2011
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well done hiohaa... this in-depth feedback is what these forums need.
    The trick now is to get ISI to notice it :)
     
  15. mclaren777

    mclaren777 Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    546
    Likes Received:
    14
    I think it's unreasonable to blame the headlights for not being up to Le Mans standards.
     
  16. STRZ

    STRZ Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    0
    +1 just make it stay at the top *push* :)
     
  17. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,774
    Likes Received:
    29
    depends on what does 'better' mean. It is not enough to have some additional feature. This feature should also has expected quality. And yes, weather effects looks quite good in rF2. I'm not going to say it is top notch - but satisfying enough.
    What is wrong is whole representation of the scene. There are a lot of issues, let's list a few of them:
    - lack of real-like reflections (based on Fresnel formula),
    - wrong methods of lighting (try to enable headlights during a day),
    - wrong interaction between shadows and light sources (try headlights against shadows)
    - wrong apporach in shading - there are bunch of specialized shaders instead of a few universal ones, in other words gfx artist has to select shader which should be not his job. Do you think that in real world glass reflects light another way as tree does? No - reflection works always in the same way.

    All those things says something about approach/skill of ISI gfx programmer. Those methods has been developed 10 years ago and replaced with new ones on mass marked about 5 years ago. Unfortunately they remain in ISI products. Look at braking lights glow. They are done by 3d object instead of HDR. Look at stop lights behind the car during a day - have you seen some thing in real life? I'm not. it is not only far from reality. But looks like they are move away. Sad.

    I'm not saying that to insult anybody, especially ISI stuff. My intention is just to react on your post to show you how far rF2 gfx is from what is called "good graphics". To be honest, today it is 5 years old comparing to recent titles.

    Now I expecting immortal argument: "ISI is small company, not as big as EA". I may assure you, it doesn't matter. Of course you may deny it ;)
     
  18. Carbonfibre

    Carbonfibre Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    0
    Excellent read, good review!

    If you want to go into further detail about things such as sound, there was a thread dedicated to it. Areas like dynamic range, reverb, road/wind noise, transmission warble, bumps, etc.

    However, I don't think the problem with bass can be solved by better samples in this case, because of the way sample-based synthesis works. When the pitch is shifted by changing engine revs; any low hz bass will only happen during the sample's sweet-spot, and only last a fraction of a second in-game. :confused:

    I believe rF2 needs something like a dynamic equalizer to manage frequency's in real-time so those low hz get boosted or reduced accordingly, or rather, a full engine frequency range is maintained flat as possible during all revs.
     
  19. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,774
    Likes Received:
    29
    Good point, Carbonfibre.
     
  20. jimcarrel

    jimcarrel Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2012
    Messages:
    1,720
    Likes Received:
    24
    There is always the sound synthesizer associated with your sound card, if it has one. My SB audigy does. I just forget I've got it.
     

Share This Page