Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by pitkin, Nov 3, 2011.
No offense man, but after reading this part, I'm now pretty sure you don't know what you're talking about.
In MMORPG games you sell your character with all it's abilities, items, etc., not the account itsef actually.
Why on earth I would pay anyone for his rFactor 2 account if I can buy my own? Unless I'm interested in buying his statistics... But that would be lame
And why on earth I would need multiple accounts if I have only one copy of rFactor? Unless there's more users of the same computer and they all want their own accounts - in that case each one of them should buy their own account. Just so
Most MMOs it's actually against the rules to do that, too.
Ok went and reread it and it appears I was wrong...I didnt read the updated stuff..my bad...accept the apology.
However I am still withholding judgement on all the rest of the arguements until it gets here.
Personally, if you look at it from a dollar point of view....which appears to be what everyone is getting upset about...
$50 for the game (yeh yeh I am rounding), which INCLUDES $13 for the first year
$37 for the game
$13 for the first year
$52 for the succeeding 4 years
$102 for 5 years worth of gaming.......
Still worth it considering most games now are around the $100 and are dead and buried within 6 months.
IF it was $13 a week or month I could see the issue.
The BIGGEST issue for me is, internet stability.
Locally where I live the internet is out CONSTANTLY and very unreliable. We also do a lot of organised LAN's. Providing internet access for those is simple enough, but lets say the internet is down. Will there be a "grace period" of say a day or two so LAN games are still possible?
The only reason I am asking that, mainly more of a suggestion, is because with our LANS we have people who travel 4 hours to attend, that would bite if they travelled for that time to not play.
But that would be a VERY small market for the intended scope of this game, so understand if there wont be, so that is more of a suggestion for Tim to take back to ISI.
You can. Just don't use any of the online features. No clock is ticking, you're very welcome to add another year when the funds are available to you and keep that clock ticking. As Gjon said, it isn't going to fit what everybody wants, and if rFactor 2 isn't for you, then unfortunately we're going to have to take that loss.
No, the software is together the way it's been stated to be.
You're not being charged for the first year of the online account, at all. The purchase price to use the software - in any way - is the $43.99 amount. Regardless of whether you raced it online for 365 days or you tried it once and put it 'on the shelf' (although if that were the case, I'd ask for a refund). You're being charged for the second year onwards. If you don't want to use it online, don't use it online. Just don't pay at the start of year two. You can ask me 100 different ways, it's going to be the same decision, same answer. If you don't want to use the online, don't use it, but we're not crediting you $13 for not doing so. The pricing is clear.
I appreciate you being polite while discussing with me, by the way.
Personally I think it's fairly obvious why LAN cannot exist outside of the matchmaker.
That is, Hamachi server + a website listing of rF2 servers = incredibly easy to circumvent the yearly subscription charges.
It would be bit shallow to suggest there isn't LAN just to prevent piracy, but it's certainly one of the facts in the equation.
Money always makes things more complicated.
O for sure, no arguement here.
To be honest, if the internet did go down on one of our LAN nights, no biggie, we just do more of the secondary option....drinking and socialising
It seems that nobody besides Petros is "getting it". Running a simulation league and creating and supporting a mod is an investment. Our league has done this since 2006 after carefully selecting a platform to invest our time on. That is 5 years of engineering time (our league mod is a meta mod...we have code generating the final mod based on season to season changes, with teams designing their own cars each season, etc), league support, results processing code, site work, etc. We "own" our rF1 copies. We are safe on this platform.
From a private league point of view, rF2 is a subscription model. Your do not "own" your rF2 copy (again, from an online league point of view). So all that investment is now at risk of being totally useless, by no fault of our own, if something happens to ISI. Be it shutting its doors, getting bought by iRacing or something, or just change of heart by management. All they have to do is stop being in the subscription sim racing business, and our investment is instantly gone (or when the clock runs out).
This has NOTHING to do with the amounts of money. That $102 for 5 years of gaming is not too much. But as a subscription, our league cannot do it. Give us a lifetime option, w/o the phone-home enabled. Make it even more if you want. $150, fine. But give us the security to base our investment upon.
And it does not matter what anybody from ISI promises about intent or security. If it is a subscription, the winds of business can blow it away.
Anyway, our league was very much looking forward to rF2. Not now. Now we are trying to figure out what to do.
To be honest i dont understand why people are só angry about the online fee...10 € per year is nothing!!!! Cmon guys!!! Anyway you have 1 year free and if you dont like go for c.a.r.s or GTR3 or something else, in these days you have a lot of options, át. Least they gave us the freedom To choose, you dont need To pau after a year!!! Or year An. Alf
Oh I get it, believe me I get it.
But my other point is, so far I dont believe ANYONE is operating on exact information but assumptions based on a product that hasnt been released. Things can change.
I personally am waiting to see the BETA before I go making any decisions. Hell I am already planning on running rF2 at our LAN's next year....only after I check it out when the BETA/Release arrive.
Planning any further that that is madness....pure an utter madness.
Personally I think your league should still be looking forward to rF2. I mean you still have rF1 which must be working fine if your still running it. rF1 is our fall back option for the LAN, which like you, runs its own MOD, has had YEARS of fine tuning and investment and other items of similair note.
I just think people are jumping to conclusions based on information that has been stated is not 100% finalised.
I will still be buying the game on release of the BETA just to see how it is all going to work. Hell we are planning a weekend of LAN just to test out what it can actually do, because when it comes down to it....noone actually really knows 100% until that download is in everyones hot little hand.
So its those kind of knee jerk reactions that I find the amusing part. The community is hungry for information, and its something we have all been waiting for, but with expectations and suspense emotion becomes involved and this leads to assumptions and reactions that I think are far outblananced to what they need to be.
It wont be long know and we can all abuse ISI if it is totally wrong than.
Just a note though. With your post above, think back to rF1, did you ONCE consider which direction the company MIGHT take with rF1 once it was released? I know I didnt. ISI have proven themselves to me and I willing to give them the benifit of the doubt until shafted....than its gloves off
And as you stated about intent, they COULD have done the same with rF1 and they CAN at some later date easily remove the need to be logged on. So really, lets show a little bit of respect for the company that so far, has not done the wrong thing by the community.
If they do.....well dont buy their product, deal with it that way.
BTW this is not a personal attack but more of an observation.
I am not jumping to conclusions. Wheatley said unambiguously that ALL online racing has to connect to their MM service, which requires the subscription.
Correct, we did not consider ISI's long term future or intent for our rF1 choice...because we did not need to. rF1 does not disable when a subscription runs out. It does not need to phone home once the initial license is validated. If ISI vaporized, my rF1 bits on my computer still work.
Note that their 5 machine moving silliness DID give us pause. It was actually a close call on those grounds, because that was almost enough to make ISI's future matter, because eventually, enough new machines later, rF1 bricks as well.
And yes, if they stick to this subscription policy, we won't be buying it.
I guess if you have already made your mind up, there is not much ISI or anyone else will do to change it....
They can change my mind. Easy. Simply provide an option to buy a version that does not require a subscription for private online play, and does not phone home except for initial install validation. It can be expensive (in consumer game terms). That's fine. It just cannot be that we need a subscription to use our own development investment in a private online setting.
I think you should make unlimited license for people who run constantly in there own leagues (which must maintain there league systems, servers and sites). Make it double the price. Anything up to $100 I will pay for not limited lifetime option.
About autoupdate service. It seems that ISI will have FTP server with all the mods? Otherwise, how will system be able to update all mods for everybody all time? But wouldn't there be any legal trouble with holding and distributing unlicensed content for money (because now we must pay you for this)? Most mods of real life series are like this.
Or another option, and this is just throwing this out there.
Lets say they stick with the Subscription under the assumption that IF they ever had to, heaven forbid, shut down, close, whatever.
That they would release a patch that would negate the need for the Authentication.
There are plenty of games out there that use similair systems now, it has become a norm and I am quite surprised others had not seen this coming. We had been discussing this for some time within our LAN as a possibility.
As I have said before...ISI have not shafted the community before, I do not see them doing it again.
Yes, where I work, we have that sort of thing with software we license. If the company ever goes away, or drops the product, we get the source, by contract.
That is a possibility. And I'd prefer it to be the source, not just a patch. But I guess the worst case acceptable scenario is by contract if the MM service ever does stop, they have to provide a patch allowing online play without subscription.
edit: but the more expensive single pay unlimited approach is much preferred. I do not want to distract by delving into the detail why, at least not until ISI shows any hint that it would matter to dig into it....since their minds seem made up.
so you wont take the chance of losing $13 because a company thats been around for a long time (15 yrs?) might close...hilarious
Yeh and I personally understand entirely why they have taken that route. They have to protect their investment, well at least try to. I can tell you it was easy to crack the original rFactor and people will do it because they think it makes them "Computer Hackers". We had to make a policy at the LAN, if you come with hacked version and have problems....leave me the hell alone.
And that is why I made the suggestion about the patch, they will more than likely listen to something suggested as an alternative than a straight, "Not now. Now we are trying to figure out what to do." when the game and details have not yet been finalised.
Tim has always been pretty adimant with anything released that it is subject to change, which is why my comment above was directed at Knee Jerk reactions. We dont have the game, we dont have the final details all we have is development ideas and paths. Lets see what happens
Jim Beam, its loosing more than $13 for person who organizes league, site, rents servers, manages forums, develops league software (like we did on our site), administrates races. Its so much time and money to put in one stable platform for years.
Orangutan and Mak described it already perfectly.
Nibo,...sorry but Petros said it twice. It's not about the money... because it's 2 € for 2 accounts per month... only 5,50 € to get the opportunity to have 5 accounts within matchmaker per mounth. That is a pack of cigarettes... or a cafe a lait at starbucks *g* (for you pussies out there,..haha)
It's something else,... "principles" if you like it that way...
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