rF2 FFB system and philosophy

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by DrivingFast, Nov 4, 2020.

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  1. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @mantasisg as an example of knowledge and statements people will pick up and run with: have you checked that Einstein quote is actually something Einstein said? I guarantee you 99% of his quotes aren't.

    (which says something about our need to hear something from someone whose opinion we value, often more than whether it's true)
     
  2. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    "IIRIC I have heard that in one video from Veritasium. So I take that as a fact. Plus it sounds really smart, so I take it :D"
    Albert Einstein

    But seriously, you have a point. I wouldn't fully trust questionable source claiming to be quoting source that I trust. And there are also some bizzare possibilities that no one could even imagine. It could be possible that it was said before by someone Einstein knew. And him being such a figure it is no wonder if thing got noted when he used it and eventually credited to him. Thats nothing unusual, it happens all the time. It also might have been thought out and even said multiple times before through whole existence of human civilization and no one would known it and Einstein just came up with same idea. Or perhaps some smart autistic guy in 4chan came up with this cool thougth himself, but decided to credit it for Einstein for fun, I think all quostes should belong to Einstein lol
     
  3. UGM 133A

    UGM 133A Registered

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    Are you running a manual rack? If not, that could easily explain those differences, since rF2 doesn't simulate power steering as that's actually a very complicated thing which would require specific hardware and not just software.
     
  4. davidporeilly

    davidporeilly Registered

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    My car has power steering.
    I think non power steering is very rare in modern race cars.
     
  5. Rui Santos

    Rui Santos Registered

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    You guys want power steering? Put the "Car Specific FFB Multiplier" down to 0,20 and there you go your power steering :D
     
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  6. UGM 133A

    UGM 133A Registered

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    Well, there you go.

    I wish it was that simple.
     
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  7. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    I wonder what would be more difficult. Hydraulic or electric powersteering. I suppose hydraulic.
     
  8. UGM 133A

    UGM 133A Registered

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    I think it would be most difficult due to the fact that there are so many different ways of doing it and auto makers seem to do whatever they prefer to do. You'd have to somehow measure the behavior at the steering wheel rather than calculating steering rack forces, so you'd need direct access to every single car with power steering in order to get the feel and behavior accurate. Some systems use a torque sensor to measure forces applied by the driver to adjust assist levels, which means you'd have to also have a torque sensor on your sim wheel to do the same thing, and that would only work for those types of systems, other systems might require other random hardware to make it work.

    It would get very convoluted and wouldn't be worth the trouble in the end, at least not for sim racing. I'm sure these days, the major auto makers have systems to simulate power steering settings (especially EPS) to shorten the design and prototyping phases of new cars.
     
  9. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Thats interesting, but is it worth it to get worse feeling steering. Also perhaps they get less complicated with powersteering for race cars. Since for example tiny gains of better fuel economy is not tha timportant. Race cars aren't going to cover 500 000 kilometers.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2020
  10. UGM 133A

    UGM 133A Registered

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    I don't think it's worth it at all.

    My only point was that you can't base the observations of driving a car in the real world which has power steering, with driving that same car in the sim world, it's not going to feel the same due to the simple fact that power steering isn't being simulated. There would be no way to separate the differences caused by the lack of power steering simulation vs the actual simulation errors. We're therefore effectively only talking about the nuances of steering feedback with a manual rack, so any observations based on driving cars with power steering is basically useless (no offense to anyone).
     
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  11. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    It'll feel closer than wrestling a hyperactive goat over a bowl of banana peels, and I'd question whether the gap between power steering or not is bigger than the gulf between sitting in a rig or chair and being constantly pushed and pulled and bounced and jostled in a real car, and the effect of all those on the perception of the steering feedback (and, to a fair extent, the near impossibility of isolating steering wheel feedback from everything else going on).
     
  12. UGM 133A

    UGM 133A Registered

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    Exactly, there's also all of the other forces at play. In formula cars, I always had a hard time keeping the steering perfectly still in a straight line, not only because of the bumps acting on the steering rack, but simply because my arms would be bouncing up and down from the car's movements. I think anyone being honest can't really compare sim cars to real cars because the two activities are actually very different, despite one trying to copy the other.
     
  13. Rui Santos

    Rui Santos Registered

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    Guys, wheel is what makes us feel what's "going on" with the car, we can't have power steering because in simracing it's the only way to feel what's happening... unless you want a less informative FFB, but for that you have AC :D
     
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  14. Pawel44

    Pawel44 Registered

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    I tested on my own and it's visible on Nordschleife and Ferrari 488 GTE. I even posted a video here:

    https://forum.studio-397.com/index.php?threads/ferrari-488-gte-and-nordschleife-like-on-glue.67357/

    I no longer believe it's possible to go so fast and survive.



    Yes, because of his flawed theories.
     
  15. Kahel

    Kahel Registered

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    'flawed theories'... Interesting expression... let's just think about that for a second.

    A theory is meant to be, well, a theory, something to be tested... and at some pont, validated or not... by the community, on an ongoing process, that probably never end.
    So can a theory ever be flawed?

    Even if we strech it a little, and try to meant 'flawed paradigm'... with the assumption that a theory, especially a wide spread one, necesseraly build a paradigm around it... Is there ever an 'unflawed' knowledge that went through trial and errors... Isn't the flawed road essential in the knowledge process?
     
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  16. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Science and knowledge is all about many failed theories. I kind of stopped paying attention when we kept attributing the quote to Einstein, who very likely never said such a thing (at all - not just first).
     
  17. Kevin van Dooren

    Kevin van Dooren Member

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    I'm missing a discordquote :p
     
  18. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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  19. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Alright, whatever who said it, it is good quote. I can't prove it was Einstein.

    @Lazza Thats weird lol, can you explain why you are debating that it wasn't said by Einstein ? You don't like Einstein, or the quote, or quoting in general ? :D

    P.S. As I was in technical university many lecturers has said the same thing that more knowledge often raises more questions than it gives answers. There is nothing outstanding about such idea. But the "possibily not Einsteins quote" is just nice simple illustration, and analogy. I think practicing in finding such playful nice analogies is awesome.

    P.S. you guys probably know what else has shape of the circle, but I am afraid to mention it. But as a hint I can say that it does not expand when consumed, unlike knowledge.
     
  20. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    Yes, a cake.
    But instead of the cake, we are the ones who expand by consuming it.
     
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