rF2 FFB system and philosophy

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by DrivingFast, Nov 4, 2020.

Tags:
  1. Cote Dazur

    Cote Dazur Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2017
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    37
    Some very interesting comments in this thread on the ever elusive FFB subject. I have a question for such a knowledgeable panel.
    For you, is FFB purpose to help with immersion or is FFB purpose to help to better control/drive the simulated car?
     
  2. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    10,475
    Likes Received:
    5,312
    A much much faster driver than I'll ever be commented on discord that FFB smoothing on 0 gave more useful feedback and was generally worth the extra rattling or noise compared to 2 or 4 smoothing.

    Granted this is a leading level driver with I think a good DD wheel, so I don't know how much of that will filter through to the average player and equipment, but it shows the FFB does convey information that is of benefit.

    On the other side, if a friend comes over and drives for 20 mins to check out your system/rig/game without any real hope of hitting consistent apexes or competitive times, strong FFB is all about immersion. Heck, make it clip - they won't know, and they'll walk away impressed.
     
    pferreirag60 and delapecs like this.
  3. David Short

    David Short Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2018
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    65
    Just my 1 cent observation. I use a NLR V3 motion platform, vr and buttkicker in my futile attempt for the most immersion and realism as my budget allows (Sorry honey no christmas presents again this year lol). Although I haven't tried ACC preferring open wheel cars I have played AC, PC2, R3E and AMS 2 and as much as I try to like them for a change of venue I only lasts minutes before I'm back to rF2. There always seems to be a disconnect between steering and seat motion it just doesn't feel right. Like each is receiving different inputs. I've tried numerous different tweaks and setups but to no avail IMO.

    rF2 just feels connected and right like you're really in the car. So as Rastas stated in an earlier post here ",They are wrong,canned effects only in rFactor1,and they can be turned off,rFactor2 is pure raw FFB from chassis and tires,but most from chassis\suspecion geometry" This is certainly the feeling I get when I'm strapped into the rig for a race in rF2.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2020
  4. DrivingFast

    DrivingFast Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,639
    Likes Received:
    1,082
    I have no motion rig and I have only a T300 (very well tuned by cons), and I feel the same.

    rF2 FFB seems realistic to me and very pleasant/immersive, the physics engine of rF2 seems to me of great quality, and the ~43 official S397 cars seem to me to be very realistic.

    I always thought rF2's FFB was RAW and flowed straight from physics with no fake/canned effects.

    But after reading several comments from different ACC fans, saying that rF2's FFB is not RAW and uses unrealistic effects, I wanted to confirm my thoughts by asking rF2 users about it.
     
  5. Filip

    Filip Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,208
    Likes Received:
    933
    @DrivingFast what if someone confirms that rf2 uses canned effects (what ever that means)? Would you suddenly stop enjoying its ffb? I know that I wouldn't and don't care about purity as I don't have 10 000 $ motion rig, DD wheel, feedback in brake pedal and feedback in shifter.
    Without all these I want ffb to be as much informative as it can while being believable at the same time.
    If sim manages to put some effect like bottoming out or misshift into ffb and even though if that effect is not felt in a wheel of the real car I am all for it if it is integrated well and feels "natural".
    To answer Cote Dazur question I want immersion and of course any help from ffb to better feel what car is doing.

    To summarize:
    With such lacking and missing hardware I get more immersed feeling effects in my wheels ffb that are not present in real life's car wheel than not getting that feedback at all.
     
    Xzanman likes this.
  6. UGM 133A

    UGM 133A Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2019
    Messages:
    64
    Likes Received:
    26
    People don't seem to understand that the more accurate the feedback is, the more you'd be able to feel what the car is doing. If you throw in random effects to coincide with stuff that's happening to the car that wouldn't otherwise be felt through the steering, it would get in the way of useful feedback.

    There simply is no replacement for g-forces, brake feel, manual transmission feel, or inner ear feel.

    This is why no matter how many millions F1 teams spend on their sims, guys like Lewis Hamilton will always say that it's not the same as driving the real car. If you use 7 times your own body weight to help with applying the brakes in the real car, you can't just say for the sim; "Oh, well you can't feel g-forces, so we'll add those effects into the steering feedback so that he can use the brakes like the real car." These are completely different physical actions that have nothing to do with the steering wheel.

    You simply can't replace these other things which are inherently missing in a sim no matter how careful or creative you are.
     
  7. Filip

    Filip Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,208
    Likes Received:
    933
    May be you are right and this is not possible.
    But if some developer somehow manages to embed such effects in ffb without it getting in the way of useful feedback then I will be glad to have it.
    While I want the car's physics to be as close to the real life as possible on the other hand with ffb I don't care about authenticity because with cheap wheel and single flat screen I am missing so much info compared to what real car would be giving. If that missing feedback is translated to me in some unrealistic but for me informative and enjoyable way that makes driving more immersive for me.
    When I get my hydraulic motion rig with all sorts of feedback then I am happy to move over to "pure ffb camp".

    All that said I find rf2 ffb most informative, engaging and most immersive of all sims I have.
    Is it most realistic? I don't know and I don't care.
     
    avenger82 likes this.
  8. UGM 133A

    UGM 133A Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2019
    Messages:
    64
    Likes Received:
    26
    I get what you mean. To me, sim racing is purely for fun as well, that said, and as sad as it is, there's just nothing you could do with the FFB that would give you that extra information without taking away something from the actual steering feedback.

    I would recommend upgrading your wheel to a direct drive, and then getting some tactile transducers long before any commercially available motion systems. Motion sims are, in my opinion, a huge waste of money since they don't give you an accurate sensation. It might be fun for certain people, but I think it would actually make most real-world drivers slower because it gives you false/meaningless feedback where very little would translate from driving a real car.
     
  9. Cote Dazur

    Cote Dazur Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2017
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    37
    Help could also mean feeling some thing in the wheel that is not felt IRL, like the wheel getting lighter when you understeer, practical but not realistic and therefore not immersive.

    Yes to tactile, when not trying to cram too many effects. It does great at complementing a realistic FFB. Realistic in that it feels like a real wheel does.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2020
  10. UGM 133A

    UGM 133A Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2019
    Messages:
    64
    Likes Received:
    26
    Well, to clarify, in reality and in rF2, the steering forces do technically drop off slightly as slip angles increase, but once you get too much sliding, the weight increases again as it follows the pneumatic trail of the tires. Obviously the wheel should never become completely weightless no matter what kind of slip angle you have, but there is definitely a plateau after a certain slip angle, and then a slight drop. There was a picture posted on the forums several years ago showing a telemetry trace of the slip angles vs steering rack forces and it showed that rF2 produced these same results accurately, much like in real life.
     
  11. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,596
    Likes Received:
    3,523
    I remember we once had into interesting discussion regarding oversteer motion back in AC forums. Steering should inevitably go light for certain time when oversteering. Thats simply because it is changing direction from one side to another, so it must get light at some point somehow, at some rate. We had bit of discussion back in AC if oversteering is pivoting around CG, or is it pivoting around some point on front axle ? In my thinking oversteer is pivoting around front axle point. I think pivoting around CG would be a thing called "neutralsteer", when all wheels slip angles are pretty much equal and the overall balance of the car is very good. Neutral steer is either completely different thing, or a form of oversteer. I love neutral steer with some oversteer and unersteer, thats when car really feels best and most exciting to me. During neutral steer steering can get just light and don't get (or hardly get) steering torque directed into a slide. Most likely because torque at the front contact patch would get equal to torque caused by overturning rear end of a car. Also.... THROTTLE STEERING, YES !
    I wonder if pivot point of overturning car might always be somewhere in a triangle that is defined by CG and front wheel steer pivoting points ? I would be really surprised if oversteer would actually always happen to be pivoting around CG...



    @Lazza I actually read that whole post, must be part of minority. Finally had time for that haha Very good read, and also blends in a lot in terms of philosophy with that evolution bit. I just think it wasn't completely tied with the subject of FFB, unless I missed it out. Did you mean simulation adopting steering feel/physics helpers or whatever that does not exist in real life (at least not yet lol) would be kind of evolution ? I actually think it would be devoliution to be separating from reality, even though having improved version of it.

    As for part where you tagged me, I have the same opinion as you for the seat feel vs FFB actually. IDK if I might have sounded otherwise before. I also think it shouldn't be mixed in in compromised ways. Seat feel exists and it adds up awareness of whats going on, no doubt about it. I have just always been skeptic about how highly people rate that feeling, including all the best drivers in the history. I think that feel surely must have biggest impression, most outstanding, even those little changes of accelerations. What I am skeptic about is that it might be getting big part of the credit that should belong simply to visual perception. Visually we perceive all those accelerations too. What I am saying is that I have no doubt that seat feel is helping, but I thin it is overrated to begin with. As for arguments that real drivers has bit of trouble addapting to simulations, that could be a lot more reasons: in real life larger peripheral vision, more objects and visual features in real life, not limited vision by system resolution, not limited framework, all kinds of physics differences... One of the most interesting subjects.
     
  12. Filip

    Filip Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,208
    Likes Received:
    933
    You can definitely feel oversteer IRL
     
  13. Cote Dazur

    Cote Dazur Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2017
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    37
    Yes, you are absolutely correct, I meant to write under steer. I corrected my post, thank you.
     
  14. Filip

    Filip Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,208
    Likes Received:
    933
    Now when you corrected it your post is wrong :D because wheel gets lighter with understeer in a real car.
     
    pferreirag60 likes this.
  15. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,596
    Likes Received:
    3,523
    That feel when you correct oversteer, but now you understeer :D
     
    Matías Corvino likes this.
  16. Cote Dazur

    Cote Dazur Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2017
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    37
    What car do you drive? My wheel does not get lighter when I understeer. The car goes in the wrong direction but the wheel resistance does not change.
     
  17. Filip

    Filip Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,208
    Likes Received:
    933
    I don't believe my 90hp funny family cubicle shaped car is capable of oversteer or understeer.
    But I trust professionals on this:
    https://driver61.com/uni/understeer/
    https://drivingfast.net/understeer/

    It should be dependant on the car though.

    Edit: I forgot about snow and ice.
    Yes, even in my 90hp funny family cubicle shaped car with regular street tires but with good power steering system I felt noticable lightness in a steering wheel when understeering on ice.
     
  18. Cote Dazur

    Cote Dazur Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2017
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    37
    Any car, when driven the wrong way, will oversteer or understeer, go to an empty parking lot and have some fun, at the same time notice what you feel on the wheel.

    Good for you, I trust my self, I do not need any one to tell me what it feels like, I know what it feels like. When you understeer in real life you do not need to wait for what the wheel is telling you, not much anyway in that situation, you will know you have lost grip and that the car is sliding in the wrong direction.
    In SIM all we have is the visual queue, in VR it is more obvious because of 3d, but with the wrong fov in 2d, by the time you see it, it might be a little late.
     
  19. Filip

    Filip Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,208
    Likes Received:
    933
    As I said I felt noticable lightness in a steering wheel when understeering on ice.

    You know what understeer feels like in your car but do you know how it feels in 500hp race car with racing slicks?
    Are you claiming there is no feeling of understeer in a wheel for any real car or only for your car?
    Which car from which sim has unrealistic understeer feeling?
     
  20. Andregee

    Andregee Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    329
    The self-rotating steering wheel is clearly visible

     

Share This Page