Discussion in 'Technical & Support' started by vegaguy5555, Jan 7, 2018.
Just different grip levels between surfaces.
Kerb pull is a thing because steering being affected by different resistances and slopes is a thing. The question is whether reversing the 'canned' kerb pull parameter reverses what you're feeling (in which case it's canned) or has no effect at all (in which case it's surface geometry and properties affecting your steering, as in real life). That's how you'd test it properly, along with increasing the strength a lot just to make sure.
Good to known
Maybe it's a language barrier and i don't understand the right meaning of 'canned', but if i understand it right, only S397 can answer if 'canned' effects are used.
Everything else is only speculative and senseless to discuss about it, in my opinion.
By default "Rumble strip magnitude" is set to 0, if you set it to 1, there will be very (too) strong kerb pull effect when driving over kerbs. When the setting is at 0 there will be only minor pull effect when you hit varying elevations in tarmac or kerbs which I think comes from the tire model.
Canned refers to pre-programmed effects that occur exactly the same whenever the game triggers them. So, just for an example, you drive part way up on a curb. rF2 uses the feedback of the tire and the track curbing to generate the force feed back to the wheel. A canned effect might just have the wheel pull left or right no matter how high you roll up on the curbing. rF2 would have a small action to the wheel if you merely grazed the curb but much more pronounced if the driver continues riding up the curb. So canned is a pre-made response versus the generated response that rF2 has. A few users here though, are thinking that at least some of the ffb in rF2 is canned, that is where the discussion is beginning.
Here are the publicly disclosed and editable FFB parameters. Hope this helps.
"Brake effects on steer axis":0,
"Brake effects on steer axis#":"0 = Brake effects on brake axis, 1 = brake effects on steering axis.",
"Brake effects strength":10000,
"Brake effects strength#":"-10000 to +10000, applies to all brake effects (force, vibration, static spring, etc?)",
"Brake spring coefficient":0.3,
"Brake spring coefficient#":"Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)",
"Brake spring saturation":1,
"Brake spring saturation#":"Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)",
"Clutch effects on steer axis":0,
"Clutch effects on steer axis#":"0 = Clutch effects on clutch axis, 1 = brake effects on steering axis.",
"Clutch effects strength":10000,
"Clutch effects strength#":"-10000 to +10000, applies to all clutch effects (force, vibration, static spring, etc?)",
"Clutch spring coefficient":0.2,
"Clutch spring coefficient#":"Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)",
"Clutch spring saturation":1,
"Clutch spring saturation#":"Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)",
"Gearbox effects on steer axis":0,
"Gearbox effects on steer axis#":"0 = Gearbox effects on gearbox 'axis', 1 = brake effects on steering axis.",
"Gearbox effects strength":10000,
"Gearbox effects strength#":"-10000 to +10000, applies to all gearbox effects (force, vibration, static spring, etc?)",
"Gearbox spring coefficient":0,
"Gearbox spring coefficient#":"Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)",
"Gearbox spring saturation":1,
"Gearbox spring saturation#":"Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)",
"Ignore controllers#":"Do not use FFB on: 1=controller1, 2=controller2, 4=controller3, 8=controller4 (or add values to ignore multiple controllers, for example 15 ignores all)",
"Jolt magnitude#":"How strong jolts from other cars (or walls) are. Suggested Range: -2.0 to 2.0.",
"Off-road multiplier#":"Temporary test variable to reduce force feedback strength off-road (0.0 = zero FFB, 1.0 = full FFB)",
"Other spring coefficient":0.2,
"Other spring coefficient#":"Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0) for any other FFB-capable controllers",
"Other spring saturation":1,
"Other spring saturation#":"Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0) for any other FFB-capable controllers",
"Rumble strip magnitude":1,
"Rumble strip magnitude#":"How strong the canned rumble strip rumble is. Range 0.0 to 1.0, 0.0 disables effect.",
"Rumble strip pull factor":1.5,
"Rumble strip pull factor#":"How strongly wheel pulls right\/left when running over a rumble strip. Suggested range: -1.5 to 1.5.",
"Rumble strip update thresh":0.05,
"Rumble strip update thresh#":"Amount of change required to update rumble strip effect (0.0 - 1.0)",
"Rumble strip wave type":0,
"Rumble strip wave type#":"Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.",
"Steering effects strength":3000,
"Steering effects strength#":"-10000 to +10000, applies to all steering effects (torque, resistance, static spring, jolt, etc.)",
"Steering resistance coefficient":0.1,
"Steering resistance coefficient#":"Coefficient to use for steering resistance. Range: -1.0 to 1.0",
"Steering resistance saturation":0.1,
"Steering resistance saturation#":"Saturation value to use for steering resistance. Range: 0 - 1.0",
"Steering resistance type":0,
"Steering resistance type#":"0=use damping, 1=use friction",
"Steering spring coefficient":0,
"Steering spring coefficient#":"Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)",
"Steering spring saturation":0.1,
"Steering spring saturation#":"Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)",
"Steering torque capability":2.5,
"Steering torque capability#":"The maximum torque capability of the wheel (in Nm, obviously)",
"Steering torque extrap blend":0,
"Steering torque extrap blend#":"Higher blends of extrapolated value allows driver to feel torque changes even when actual torque exceeds 'input max' (0.0=disables, 1.0=max)",
"Steering torque extrap time":0.015,
"Steering torque extrap time#":"Time in seconds to extrapolate steering torque based on current change (Range: 0.001 to 0.050. To disable, set 'blend' to 0.0)",
"Steering torque filter":9,
"Steering torque filter#":"Number of old samples to use to filter torque from vehicle's steering column (0-32, note that higher values increase effective latency)",
"Steering torque minimum":0.5,
"Steering torque minimum#":"Minimum torque to apply in either direction to overcome steering wheel's 'FFB deadzone' caused by friction",
"Steering torque per-vehicle mult":1,
"Steering torque per-vehicle mult#":"Per-vehicle steering column torque multiplier (this is a copy of the .CCH value)",
"Steering torque sensitivity":1,
"Steering torque sensitivity#":"Sensitivity curve applied to representable torques: 0.0=low 1.0=linear 2.0=high",
"Steering torque zero-speed mult":0,
"Steering torque zero-speed mult#":"Multiplier at zero speed to reduce unwanted oscillation from strong static aligning torque",
"Throttle effects on steer axis":0,
"Throttle effects on steer axis#":"0 = Throttle effects on throttle axis, 1 = throttle effects on steering axis.",
"Throttle effects strength":10000,
"Throttle effects strength#":"-10000 to +10000, applies to all throttle effects (force, vibration, static spring, etc?)",
"Throttle spring coefficient":0.1,
"Throttle spring coefficient#":"Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)",
"Throttle spring saturation":1,
"Throttle spring saturation#":"Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)",
@Skan it doesn't really help, because we know a lot of that is from rF1 and no longer active. People see those lines and assume they're used (hence accusations of canned effects), when actual evidence suggests they aren't.
Rubbing is not proper pushing and pulling
I think this kunos answer explains a lot about why there was a heated discussion to begin with:
Q from user:"Unless people want more, then you begrudgingly give them effects/enhancements and maybe even a canned effect or two."
A:"yes but I wouldn't characterize them as "forces" but rather as "vibrations" which is a totally different concept."
Someone unintentionally implied there was something being added to the FFB to make up for the lack of something else. But the developer doesn't consider the effects that are added by default as some kind of "help" to the FFB. Just... high frequency vibrations.
I would imagine that the Understeer effect, Slip effect and Curb effect in AC would fall under the Enhancement category but, so long as a title provides the appropriate fundamental information based on car-physics, I'm not bothered by a few enhancements - especially if they are optional. Road effects IIRC, are a force multiplier for bumps generated by the track surface.
I believe many of these discussions stem from ignorance or malice on part of some fan-boy trying to slight a competing title. More recently, there has been a lot of this going on with PC2 and some towards AC on multiple fronts. Disinformation has become the tool of choice in so many ways but, if we take things quite literally, how much of Simulation is real anyway(?)
I think many such threads start out as being well-meaning ways to share information among like-minded people but, there are always those that take advantage of an opportunity to get in some punches on the opposition. It only takes one bad apple . . .
As I understand it, physics-based FFB is derived from suspension & steering rack performance. There is no actual function specifically working in the FFB-API that directly represents the Tires themselves; ideally, there probably should be but, there are always some limitations with imitations.
What I cut and pasted was from my controller json, not rf1. Who is we? I do not have rf1. You and anyone else reading this can adjust those and feel changes if your hardware allows for it. This was made for more than a simple wheel, pedals and shifter like I have. This is for full motion rigs and/or people who don't mind making and/or building their own FFB enabled devices. Everyone here could have FFB gearboxes and FFB anything else listed in the controller json if they had the hardware. I don't know or care if these effects are canned but they are adjustable and that is enough for me.
The slip effect is probably the most interestting because it was part of AC's tyre model in the past. Ironically this one effect is turned off by default in AC as I remember. Anyone that follows the Simracingpaddock channel should already know this discussion but here it is.
I vaguely remember kunos explaining the underteer effect blaming the lack of range of the weaker steering wheel bases as the reason for its existence.
Using the same kind of car in RF2 (like FISI vs F138 from AC) though I can definitely feel understeer - or something - when steering too much.
Thanks, I vaguely recall such discussion somewhere in the AC forums too.
The "under-steer effect" is interesting because it comes through differently in different titles but, it's effective in any case. In AC, the fall-off effect seems to represent absolute confirmation of going passed the optimal slip-angle. Ideally, one should never trigger it if the "resistance-indicator" senses are sharp. In most other title's (except RR), there is a plateau in resistance in place of the sudden falloff. I've gotten to the point where I like both methods, so long as the accompanying tire-audio cues are effective too.
The Slip-effect is something I've experienced during Auto Cross events myself, so I know that can happen but, I imagine it has a lot to do with the tires in use as well as other factors. I'm not a purist in the sense that I only want realistic forces in FFB, I'll take whatever makes it immersive and allows me to sustain maximum "edge of adhesion" moments.
They are listed in the JSON and you can edit the values, sure, but it doesn't mean they have any impact on the actual FFB you are getting. I discussed this many years ago with ISI dev and he told me most of those lines were remains of rF1 and no longer used in the actual simulation. And the less of these effects, the better. If we can already experience the real forces, there is no need for things like "brake effects on steer axis". With rF1 it was an endless task to tune these params to get the best feel, with rF2 you basically get the correct experience out-of-box.
Ah, ok, I forgot about that parameter. If that enables the kerb pull then rF2 does have that canned effect, but it's not there unless you go and enable it (it's off in all the controller presets). Thanks!
@Skan sorry, I didn't expect your post to be a reply to the OP, so I misunderstood. For your info, much of what is in the controller and player files hasn't changed from rF1, and in some cases they are options/features that rF2 doesn't use. (heck, rF1 didn't use all its own parameters...) So it can be misleading to assume everything mentioned in files is actually in the game.
If i am not wrong this also requires that the pianos are modeled using kerb material which long time ago was abandoned. Most tracks use regular road material for pianos so this parameter should not affect at all in most tracks.
That re-raises an interesting question for me. I briefly looked into this some time ago and couldn't work it out, and didn't bother as I don't even mod tracks so who cares...
When I look at the telemetry log from my run at Silverstone National (current version), the tyres register 'surface types' of 5 and 2, which documentation says represent rumblestrips and grass. How does the game know they're rumblestrips?
I'm not entirely against "canned effects" because so much physical inertia is missing in a simulator environment.
Material name starts which a prefix that determine its nature. They are defined in the track tdf file.
Default values are
Road or Asph for track material.
Gras for grass
Sand for sand traps
Grvl for gravel traps
Rmbl for kerbs.
I hope I didn't mess the names I wrote them by mind without checking.
@SPASKIS So doesn't this mean kerb pull can happen? Because the game knows they're kerbs? (I really ought to test, but I don't have time right now)
Separate names with a comma.