Remove rFmod Petition

Discussion in 'Component and Mod Packaging' started by Wrinkly Man, Jan 22, 2012.

  1. John

    John Registered

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    I've been following this thread for days now. havent commented as my league mates were doing a good job. ;) But, I do want to add something.

    The current ModID for multiplayer is currently too restrictive - I support separating cars from tracks. Gjon, so far I think all of your posts on the subject have been addressing leagues - and I can see your point with that scenario. However, leagues is only a part of multiplayer, what about casual public servers? The current system restricts those to your own content as the distribution of virtual mods is not handled by the server or matchmaker and as such requires extensive searching just to join a random server. This is going to hurt RF2 if it stays this way. Please separate cars from tracks.

    This brings me to single player now - I know all of your content works fine in the all cars and tracks mode - as does the currently released beta tracks. But - how will you go about ensuring customer created mods all work in this mode as well? The RF1 experience has been dismal - woeful in this regard, with the majority of mods not working in RF1's all cars and tracks rfm.

    Will Mods be required to include tracks in their packages - or is there an all tracks switch in the rfm (eg the * in RF1) that will enable the mod to work with all installed tracks regardless of their point of origin?

    This is an important question for all users of single player mode - remember not everyone can commit to a league, neither able or willing to race in public servers (pings, bandwidth issues etc as examples).
     
  2. D.Painter

    D.Painter Registered

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    Even if the mod is the same one you just downloaded with the other track. So now you've downloaded the 500+ MB car mod twice so you can have a 60MB track. Now you can if you like delete the rFmod from your package file to keep the content size to a minimum but the track is still only usable with the mod it was packed with. Ok now you either wait for someone to make a vMOD to combine all currently released mods and tracks so you can use them online or you do it yourself. Either way you still can't use them only till there's enough people and a server that have D/L this vMOD before you can even think of going online to run a mixed combination.

    Till the next track release. Then it starts all over again!

    Nand Gate: You obvious think the current system suits you. Well your in a very small minority there mate.

    This is a BETA! As such we trolls are finding and relaying what we see as possible issues to ISI. If you don't like it then don't be involve, Just wait for the BETA period to be over and the first ALPHA is released.

    Damn! now you've got me doing exactly what I dislike seeing from others! But that shows how abrasive your attitude was per trade through your comment.

    Cheers.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2012
  3. IT-Trader

    IT-Trader Registered

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    Just to add to John's post above...

    Also at the end of a night of league racing, we sometimes like to pick some random track usually entirely inappropriate for the car in use just for a laugh. Its like a social event at the end of racing. So we'd take F1 cars to Joesville or a Hillclimb maybe, whatever seems like fun at the time.
    Obviously this kind of spontaneity isn't possible with the new system but is a key part of the online rfactor experience. For many leagues, its about the people as much as the racing.


    Regarding some posts by other users, I'm frankly offended and saddened that people can be quite so rude. There is no excuse for that kind of comment. Make you points in a rational, reasoned, constructive manner or kindly refrain from posting. You're not helping otherwise.
     
  4. kleanphil

    kleanphil Registered

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    Thats what a VMod is for i'm sure
     
  5. IT-Trader

    IT-Trader Registered

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    If that reply is aimed at me then yes but no because its missing the point.

    The decision to change tracks is spontaneous, under the current system of tied cars and tracks, I have to:
    - close my game,
    - create a vmod,
    - upload it to the league web site,
    - make a post with the link,
    - log on to the race server
    - download the new file to race server
    - restart the race server
    - get all clients to download the new file and restart their game.

    None of that is needed in rF1 as it currently stands.
    If we can split cars from tracks then none of it is needed in rF2 either.

    (Note I've done a fair bit of work on this, those "All Tracks by F1Elites" that you see on the rF2 server list were created by me at F1Elites.com)
     
  6. IT-Trader

    IT-Trader Registered

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    I also wanted to add something I believe I clarified with Scott Juliano around release time that seems to have been missed in much of this thread....

    - Track creators should create and release track components.
    - Car builders should create and release car components.
    - UI Builders should create UI components.
    - etc.
    ...and the salient part is:
    - Server Admins are the ones who should create vMod referencing the above content.

    Of course we can muddy the waters a bit as follows.
    If a modding group build BOTH cars and tracks as a complete series, then it makes sense they will release it with a dedicated mod ID.
    Similarly a server admin can create a 'full' mod with all the content in it even though none of that content is his. In effect this is remove a step for the user because instead of the user having to locate each component (as we do in rF1) then they could download the lot in a single package.
    How admins wish to offer content is up to them.

    So, in broad strokes, that entire system makes a great deal of sense as a starting point.
    However, in practice the issues are as have been discussed over the last 10 pages.

    Refining it so the tracks are separate from the Mod as a whole would solve many of the issues. Sure there may be more but as a next step, that seems like a good one.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2012
  7. Gjon Camaj

    Gjon Camaj Member

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    I think some frustration is coming out of the fact that many people are trying to fit their current situation into this new package. I understand some people are fine with the system they have refined over the years, and that's cool.

    But consider for a moment a *possible* future where most consumers of rF2 find content through ModIDs. I recognize there are pit falls to overcome, but hang with me for a moment. With a single point of entry describing everything you need to race an event, this database of available races becomes the focus of discussion. The good ones make their way to the top. Good meaning there isnt redundant content where there doesnt need to be, its well tested and configured and the community has favorably rated it.

    With complete mods as more of the focus, it does make random pickup races with newly launched components more of a challenge. I honestly don't think this scenario will be impossible, but its not currently the focus. For those of you who need this aspect ironed out before you can move forward with anything else, I am going to need to ask you to wait.

    With this in mind, I would like to explore the idea that Complete Mods are more of the focus and the method people use to discuss content, set up races, and administer leagues.

    My answers will be more about how to move in this direction. I'm not saying no to pickup races, nor to people that want to continue to think Mods are only cars and tracks are temporary add-ons, its just not the focus right now.

    And since I am vying for funny man of the year award... let me leave you with this :)
    http://www.funnyjunk.com/funny_pictures/2770065/Lemme+clean+off+my+bitch+slapper/
     
  8. Gjon Camaj

    Gjon Camaj Member

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    My example was talking about the extra time a mod group might need to invest to build and test a mod. It didn't in any way say how a league should be administered. I wasn't suggesting this was needed for people to play rF or how they intend to use it. So tbh I"m not sure how your comment applies.

    I have talked to a couple successful leagues that didn't think of it in this way.
     
  9. K Szczech

    K Szczech Registered

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    Fair enough :)

    The way I see it - current ModID system is more like "ServerID", or "LeagueID" system. So you look for league on the web, not just search and join races directly in rF2.
    If that was the idea - to favor racing in organised gropus and leagues at cost of pickup racing, then so be it.

    (and the only way to achieve such goal is to make pickup racing difficult ;) )
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2012
  10. Gjon Camaj

    Gjon Camaj Member

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    I think how someone hosts a race, or administers a league will help dictate how Mods or Components are used. A league that knows their upcoming schedule and like to fine tune the rules will probably create an all new monolithic mod. Someone that likes to host the latest tracks or cars will probably post small virtual mods assuming most people will have the components installed.

    The mod makers must also be considered. A team that is trying to recreate some historic or fantasy event might want it only raced in a specific manner, especially if they want to produce Rank stats from it.

    A prolific track maker however might want to create a track-a-month and push it out as a component for people to race anything on it understanding that race hosts will test it with various car sets and build mods around it.
     
  11. Warlock

    Warlock Registered

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    Just give people a choice!
    If you believe that your freaking ModID is a great idea - ok, leave it and see as no one will use it. Because it's just stupid.
    But let people a way to switch it off and run server with any installed cars and any installed track.
    Separately CarID and separately TrackID - it's all that we need.

    Customers can find content by CarID and TrackID.
    If I already have a cars and don't have just a track - I don't need to download full mod. I need just one track to race.

    You're trying to invent a bicycle with triangular wheels, and to convince all that is great!
     
  12. Alesi

    Alesi Registered

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    ok.. i`m in, see server with renault3.5 and track - mmm.. barcelona for example.. why i need to download modId (cars - Renault 3.5 (which i already have) and trackpack)??? i dont want and do not need other track (no Valencia, Singapore Australia or other)!!!! i just want to race in Barcelona online with others people!!! so why i should download 1 gb instead 100-200 mb (just one track)???
    i entered want to drive now.. but to download modID (1gb+) i need to wait 1-2 hours??? (ok.. so fan to race after 2 hours of waiting)...
    and then, after hours of waiting of downloading, i drive a couple laps... and understand that this version of Barcelona not good and i don't like it (cause for example i saw better one).. so bye bye 1 gb modID???
    or now even better.. for example the track was good and i like it..so i decide to entered this server tomorrow to drive and have some fun... but the administrator decide to make some changes in barcelona track (for example change colors of curbs.. he did it, repack modID.. but i cant entered to servers cause i need to re-download it again (instead 1 track or even just patch for track as it is in rf1...
    yeah... sure this is much better system!!! well done
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2012
  13. feels3

    feels3 Member

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    You don't have to.
    All you need is virtual mod and you can play.

    But If someone who host session will change the circuit that you don't have, you will not be able to play with him.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2012
  14. K Szczech

    K Szczech Registered

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    But he still needs these tracks installed. Virtual mod only saves him the time to download them if he allready has them.
     
  15. feels3

    feels3 Member

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    I thought that there is no need to have files physically.
     
  16. Mee

    Mee Registered

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    My opinion: the best of 2 worlds are seperate Car- and TrackID's instead of the one current ModID:
    - You have the same flexibility as in rFactor 1: don't have a track that the server is currently running? Download it and drive. Don't have the car? Download it separately! This also has the added bonus that you don't need all the tracks the current server is set to. At the moment, when the server is configured to use all the F1 circuits for an F1 mod (for example), you effectively need to download ALL tracks to be able to race on the server. But I don't want to race at Valencia or another rubbish track, I want to drive on the track that the server currently uses. I want to download 5% of all the tracks, not the full 100! Ofcourse, when the track changes and I don't have the track (yet): tough luck, but that's my own fault by being a greedy diskspace kind of guy :).

    - You have the user-friendly system to install new mods and tracks. The package system IS more user-friendly, people who don't know how to unpack a track in the GameData\Locations folder won't have this problem anymore. The ID's are also a great way to filter online servers, to look for that track you're missing, to prevent mismatches,... I like the packages and ID's, I really do. But not bundled in 1 ModID, that's just unpractical. Imo that's a good system when you have a really complete mod (like F1) with all the cars and tracks of that season. But they are rare and imo will stay rare.


    Another remark: running a public online server is a great way to let people know your league. There are a number of guys in our league (including myself) who one day joined our server because he likes the mod that's running, found some guys having fun in his native language and decided to stick around.
    That won't be possible in the future because of the specific ModID (I say ModID, I mean a virtual mod) that will prevent non-league members from entering our server. That may not be good for our long-time future! (and this year we'll exist 10 years!)
    The solution to this may be just running a very popular Mod with it's well-known ModID, but we don't do that, we pick our own cars to drive on tracks we feel are suited for those cars. Using popular ModID's would take away our current freedom.

    My thoughts on the issue...
     
  17. kart38

    kart38 Registered

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    I like that everyone is forgetting that stuff can be released as components, that combined with a vmod means you don't have to download a complete (1GB+) mod to race on a server UNLESS that server has done something with their components and THEY require the big download.

    Why all the impatience, can't we just wait and see how this works?

    Jason
     
  18. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    I think watch before throw a stone or something similar expression is among every language and culture, I agree with you that it is better to first try.

    I don't think that we have really complete picture until there are more mods and activity around them and that whole system is in use.

    We have part of the system now and if you have foundations of house, it would be bit silly to try live in it before you have at least walls and roof there, so at least I really can't make much opinion about this system until I have seen it all.

    As I have said before, I rather wait, give it opportunity and see what is to come, only then I can really know what it is like in reality.

    I believe that many guys have thought this is all there will be in this system and that is why it brings up lot of criticism as many thought it being different stage that what it really was. I would imagine that communicating more what is not complete and what is planned might ease this kind of issues more.

    That is at least how I see it.
     
  19. Dave Purdy

    Dave Purdy Registered

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    The current model of rF2 is not compatible with current mod team methods. We are constantly issuing updates both for a public version for our league but also for our beta testers. Issuing a complete mod download each time is not efficient. Everyone wants the new effects, but no-one I have talked to wants the change in the format of mods. It just ties our hands behind our backs. I want to be able to work on 5 or more different installs that are devoted to WIP and testing online of multiple mods. Surely no-one thinks a full F1 set of cars is produced all at once? Especially if they are historic versions all unique.

    Why should it be a big pain to port our existing mods to rF2 from rF1? It should be a snap! How do I fix it so there are no rFactor files in My Documents folder?

    Dave Purdy,
    Author of physics for rFactor 1 for McLaren-F1, Porsche911GT1, World Series by Renault 3.5, F1SR GP2 2011, F1SR 1994 F1 LE and others.
     
  20. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    There is also update possibility, so one can make update package, I think that you could make base mod and then after that release improvements and extensions to that base as an update.

    Also I think that what is desired method to host races is host virtual mods.

    But I'm not stating anything about is it better or worse than old system, just think that is how it is intended to do by ISI, of course I can be mistaken, it is all new to me too so trying to figure out it still myself.
     

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