[REL] Released | Formula Pro

Discussion in 'News & Notifications' started by Paul Jeffrey, Jul 1, 2021.

  1. Smeghead

    Smeghead Registered

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    is it possible that the ai just wear their tyres out much quicker ?
    cause I've tried running some laps with increased tyre wear (x5) and the ai were pitting every couple of laps (in the dry)
    whereas my tyres were still going after 6 laps when I finally gave up on the race.
    at such time the wear on my own tyres was very visible.
     
  2. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    It looks more like AI just doesn't render tire blur texture.
     
  3. Gonzo

    Gonzo Member

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    ai uses the old simplified tire modell, so comparison is tricky.
     
  4. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    When I refer to the scope of simulation and depth one good example is the tires in ACC vs RF2. We know RF2 has a physical tire (it's a deceptive notion to call it that as it can't really be that and shares as many math and approximations as a good empiric one can also have). This physical tire though - for example - when compared to a specific thing ACC does that blew my mind at the time, is that the supposedly inferior and "magic" tire in ACC can lose prefer because of things like kerbs! I mean, RF2 supposed physical tire would lead us to believe that it is all inclusive, or at least include that, but it doesn't... How can it really be a complete "physical" model if it doesn't really do everything reality can reproduce? Then there is the aspect that a physical tire model can be made to behave much more unrealistic to the more simplistic one... Why is that? Obviously this tire model based on a better reconstruction of reality should never do this, but it does, because devs can make "rubber" behave as they want and approximations and tinkering with it can make it happen. The thing is that probably no Empiric model can behave as a physical one, but the opposite can happen and thus physical tires are the way, but coupled with the important core phylosophy that should be present in a simulation, achieving realism.

    Niels has manifested his contempt for - not RF2 actually - S397 GT3 cars when he saw the way aliens were driving them fast. Any reasonable person with his knowledge will see that and be very disappointed at a highly regarded simulation that was being used in suh a way. He still should be talking about the cars that are actually well done, not just disregarding it based on a specific car or tire - although it includes some other S397 series.
     
  5. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    @Nieubermesch No way physical model of rF2 has more approximating than empirical model such as used for ACC. I don't talk about quantities of mathematics in each, but from pure idea of how early approximating begins, empirical modeling must be making massive shortcut on it.

    I don't understand what you mean about ACC kerbs thing, but I remember all the fuss and their introduction of five? points model. To me it has always made little sense, I never followed that, but I always assumed that it was probably mostly rolling resistance and grip related things. You could easily repeat that in rF2 in any track. Or if you mean tire tramlining, pulling over kerbs. That can happen and does happen, it is related to how tire parameters are set, but even more with scrub radius that is car geometry related.

    True you can mess up physical tire model to be nothing better than anything you can choose. It is all parameters. It is easy to completely ruin tires, so it is best to understand which parameter and changed by how much and by how it can possibly relate to some other parameter can give results on tire functioning. It is same with empirical, but you right as you say, they have their ceiling lower, you will not ever be able to get what is possible with physical model, even with perfected empirical modeling, it will never work perfectly in all situations and produce natural feel. Unless perhaps it would be some hybrid of empirical vs physical, but I have no idea, guys from ISI would have an idea as they worked with both, perhaps rF2 does have some empirical stuff, I just don't know.

    Yes, I believe Niels could have had shown mercy for rF2, and looked for and picked some other content. But I don't remember, perhaps it was all about GT3 cars. I don't remember how that video series went, what was the base idea. I just don't think he likes rF2 to begin with, he will be working with empirical stuff for all the time, thats where he is at, I am not surprised he has no apparent love for rF2. However, I am very not a fan of entire simulation being reduced to a few cars, which usually happens to be GT3 cars, produced by S397 (most of rF2 GT3 cars). Same happens with the rest of influential persons, and big events that also influences rF2, it will always be that stuff. Other things are actively used just underground, almost secretly.

    I wish things will evolve. This newly announced and released tire modeling in rF2 with BMW and F.PRO is promising, it could change things for the better. It would be interesting if Niels tried it, and shared his thoughts. Perhaps he would finally find a car in physical tire simulation that is good to him.

    Personally, I wish for a third car with this new tire knowledge. I wish it wouldn't be such hardcore fast and powerful car. Something more down to earth. More mechanical to get better idea of pure tire traction without much or even any downforce. I think BMW M2 could fit for that. Or also Alpine race car, but for that one they would also need to fix completely wrong aerodynamics...
     
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  6. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    I tend to agree with you in most things, so not much to add.

    What I meant about the kerbs is that ACC tires lose pressure/air when aggresively taking kerbs, which I refered to as an example of how a physical tire model is only a term. We could have a total physical model but that means a total real life recreation. Then we have RF2 that is physical but how much physical? I mean, how many things are lacking that maybe Empirical tire versions on other games can cover and still be decent at the functions RF2 excells at? For me RF2 is still the best, but those things need to be consider.

    Niels talked about it in a video where he is driving his version of a Lambo GT3. He says he was very disappointed and never made a video because of that. I felt quite bummed to be honest, both about RF2 as I went in the rabbit hole and also at Niels because RF2 is not just GT3 and exploitative driving... He also made a passing and slight remark about aerodynamics by jokingly saying "RF2 aero maps? Absent!", so I dont know what he is talking about or if there's any merit to that. I know ACC at the time of release talked about some pretty advanced aero moddeling, but I can't really know what, just something about being something approximated to CFD...

    Talking about more mechanical grip based cars. I jumped on the Porsche Cup and I found myself agreeing with Billy Strange, that that car setup is abysmal!! The default one. I had to completely change strange values of 5(???) for front camber and some ride changes to give more weight and grip and consequently some more heat on the front tires. I like the car but those tires are definetly an hard compound for the grip it gives, pretty sure.

    I mean, in all honesty, I am not sure if some of the GT cars need a total remake of the tires. Not sure how the tires are really generated and all and how much can be tweaked after the TTool, but it's not like they are totally horrible, just need some bigger grip dropoff and edginess and not being able to hold some stupid slip angles. GT3 actually have been made better, being much more difficult on the breaks and feel more sensitive in the aero plataform changing ans creating instability. Whatever they do to fix it, the exploits have to go away, at least the way they exist right now.
     
  7. R.Noctua

    R.Noctua Registered

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    Formula PRO is an F1 car 2009MY without KERS?

    I understand that this is a fictional car, but I would like to understand what it is more like in the IRL.
     
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  8. Pales

    Pales Registered

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    This is a good point and can easily be proven by running custom offline championship log analyser. The developer was kind enough to include live values for fuel and tyre wear when I requested it, so you will be able to use that to tell.

    Typically the AI tyre wear is always more degraded than the player.
     
  9. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    I think that would be a F1 with the engines used from 1995 to 2005 an with the aerodinamics of 2022.
     
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  10. R.Noctua

    R.Noctua Registered

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    Thank you!

    All in all, it's not a bad idea - great engine and good aerodynamics.

    Is this engine the same as the McLaren Mercedes F1 V10, which is already in the game?
     
  11. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    The way that the MP4/13 puts the power is more extreme.
    The Formula Pro is easier to drive than the MCL and i'm not referring only to aerodynamics. It's easier to control the throttle. In any case is an F1, don't expect something similar to a GT3 ;). You have to be carefull
     
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  12. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    @R.Noctua, i've edited the previous post. Idon't know i what wrote, sorry.
     
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  13. R.Noctua

    R.Noctua Registered

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    It's ok, Im understand your message, thanks)

    I found it difficult to drive MP4/13, I was never able to drive it properly. I usually drive a GTE/LMP2, I think I will need to get used to the lack of TC, the lack of ABS doesn't scare me.

    All in all, I've got a SPA and Monza to test in the evening - bought Formula PRO)
     
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  14. Alex96

    Alex96 Registered

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    Perhaps it would be a good idea to contact, associate, create synergies ... with some of these centers, I don't know how many there will be in the world, but I think this one is not far from S397: https://www.ansiblemotion.com/ansib...al-to-test-tires-in-dynamic-driving-simulator
    https://www.canalneumatico.com/es/continental-probará-sus-neumáticos-en-un-innovador-simulador-de-conducción_7532
    and the simulator you are going to use supports RFpro, could you please install RF2 for testing:rolleyes:??? jaaa jaaaaaa
    ansiblemotion.jpg
    Perhaps it would be ideal to create a data feedback for the tires; We are thousands of users who could test virtual models in different conditions and mileage and validate the results more quickly.
    In the case of this F1, which is fictional, and of which there will never be real life data, it could be an option ... I don't know, maybe I'm digressing, last night I saw a documentary about advances in AI and then another about Big Data , and this morning I read the news of the Contidrom de Wietze and saw this video too:

    I have a technological / computer / simulatory mental disruption that is going around my neural system, don't pay much attention to me today :confused:
     
  15. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    @Nieubermesch Oh yes, the tire pressure loss over kerbs due to too low pressure is kool feature in ACC. I am sure it would be absolutely possible in rF2 too to add it, but probably more challenging to solve out this issue when tire still perfectly structurally sound and stable even when its pressure becomes equal to atmospheric pressure aka goes flat. It would be probably easier to do by introducing empirical tweakers on top of physical simulation, rather than trying to make it all work physically by solving all forces on the tire vs it's actual construction strength.

    As for Niels telling that rF2 aero maps were absent, iiric he meant that it wasn't displayed in any way how changes of rideheights and wings settings changed aerodynamic balance, which has always been a thing to be felt by driver in rF2 by practicing and experience, although for most content using telemetry is very effective. If I recall it correctly S397 cars also has blocked aero channels in telemetry, perhaps I am wrong about it, but then there is really no way to get numbers of aero balance. While other sims supposedly offer good info how aero balance changes in user interface. For cars such as this Formula or new BMW C1 understanding/feeling aero balances at all times is crucial in order to be competitive.

    Yes, Porsche cup would be also awesome. I have driven it last time quite long ago, but I remember I had it incredibly easy, definitely a ton easier than originally it was, probably way too easy. And also I think it still has too much aerodynamics. I guess only BMW M2 would be one that has absolutely tiny amount of downforce, or even some lift. It would be very interesting to get a feel of more realistic new tire modeling with mechanical car instead of one full of downforce.

    Speaking of how much tires can be edited after ttool, the answer is - a lot. You can make absolutely huge differences for tires without ever touching ttool, and just editing "real time" parameters for existing tires. Although perfecting ttool part would be always making everyone happy, I guess.
     
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  16. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Oh of course, and I actually to be honest wouldn't mind S397 just used some implementations that are approximations to be honest... I mean, how much have they added in terms of physics? They don't seem interested in developing the systems that much, so expecting them to do a full blown in depth addition of features is not so expectable and I would be happy they at least could add some ressonably crafted but "fake" additions (compared to the more realistic approach of "physically" bounded simulated systems).

    I assumed Niels was deprecating RF2 with the remark, based on his opinion of the cars being driven with weird setups that could make him also think something wasn't quite right with RF2 aero or aero implementation on those cars.

    I don't know, the Porsche is easy in the sense that is recoverable and tires feel forgiving, but the default setup is an understeery mess to me, and not really a matter of preference, just felt not dialed in at all for all tastes in my opinion.

    I should take a look at the parameters, but I am not really a modder or anything, but I would guess some things are simply hardwired to the TTool generation of the tire and can't be propperly worked out aftwerwards, and it leaves me to question how much some inherent behaviors are simply not possible to tweak without changing the TTool code? Just speculation.
     
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  17. R.Noctua

    R.Noctua Registered

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    Well - for those in doubt:

    Probably the most interesting F1 car I've ever driven. Not really a fan of fantasy cars, but it turned out to be better than the real F1 car, as at least it has great sound. As @lagg rightly said - it's more friendly than the MP4/13. I can say it's worth its 5 euros.

    Maybe it's the FFB, but the V10 in AMS2(although I really like GT1 in that game and the historic tracks) and F1 2020 feel lifeless compared to Formula Pro.

    The only issue is DRS. As far as I know, there used to be regulations in F1 that you could turn it on whenever you wanted in qualifying. But it seems inappropriate when the AI is always statically enabling DRS, but the player is not static. I would remove the option to enable DRS in offline racing in qualifying altogether.
     
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  18. Christian Wolter

    Christian Wolter Registered

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    Damn! With what setup can you race a 1.41.xx in SPA (Formula Challenge)?Who has such a setup...I'll gladly take it
     
  19. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    At least the lap time is ok.
    The current record lap is 1:41.252 Lewis Hamilton - Mercedes (Formula 1 2020)

    Edit: I'd like to have that setup, too.
     
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  20. Coutie

    Coutie Moderator

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    If you want to talk about AMS2, go to their forum.
     
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