Released Released | BMW M4 Class 1 2021

Discussion in 'News & Notifications' started by Paul Jeffrey, Jun 24, 2021.

  1. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    @Sim_Player

    Interesting, yes indeed I was only in race sessions. Must try qualification session. But we have our Chaparra 2F mockup car in our 1967 mod, and it also should have flaps, and its rear flap doesn't move to me either, it used to always work. I am weirded out. P.S. How much time does these flaps win for BMW ?

    By the way, I used to drive naturally Progressing before. Now I drive heavy real roads. Doesn't seem to provide that much extra grip, but seems to make tires to be less prone to get into sliding, which is nice.

    Edit: Yes DRS worked in Q session. What a waste of time hotlapping this without DRS, it gives ~1.5s or more faster laptimes. Also insta death if turned on wrong moment.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2021
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  2. Martin Vindis

    Martin Vindis Registered

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    Yes, soon™
     
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  3. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Yeah, I enable DRS after the first chicane but really have to be careful with the steering - minimum as possible. My best is a 1:41:107 right now.
     
  4. Kelju_K

    Kelju_K Registered

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    Initially i thought this car has no mechanical grip at all. Lowering the rear wing from default 28 to 19 made the car absolutely undriveable. And i dont use that word lightly. I usually like cars that others call that.
    I mean, i couldn't get out of the pits without spinning.
    But i started tinkering the setup, just for fun. I didn't expect any magical low wing setting to be found, that would make me super fast. I realize that these cars are made to have high aero grip, and the gear ratio proofs that pretty clearly, as you can get almost to max revs with 6th gear with default wing.
    But like i said, just for fun, i started digging the mechanical grip under the rock, to see if there is anything there.
    I ended up with setup, with that wing 19, that is slower than with default wing. but only about 2-2.5 seconds slower in Silverstone. I am able to set relatively consistent laptimes with it, and the time loss comes mainly from having to lift the throttle, and especially delay opening it in many places to act as traction control to compensate the loss acceleration, and cornering grip.

    I'll share it here, even tough it has no real value, as it is slower like i said, but maybe someone who enjoys ovals could have some use for it, or i maybe it could be used as template for those yearning mechanical grip for their setup, and start to build their setup on top of this.
    I was surprised how driveable i actually became with almost no rear aero grip. So to say, there is no mechanical grip, is just not true. The car actually bounces on bumps mid corner some places, just like no aero car would.
    Anyways, here you go:
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/167...70p3X0f5uPRCqmjCzG3u9ylISvz4/view?usp=sharing

    Edit. it's made in silverstone, and is slightly un symmertical in tires tab, (cambers + pressure) to work there. For ovals, reverse the camber un symmerty atleast.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2021
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  5. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    Remember with the 2F you have to manually edit the front flap to match the rear flap. DRS has no front flap so if you are trying to use the controller profile from the 2F, you are probably toggling DRSon/off in a mini-micro-second. Create a new DRS only profile and assign only the rear flap. The DRS indicator on the dash will change color when you have sucessfully enabled DRS
     
  6. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    I'm finding that slip angles can still be abused a little bit too much after chasing a good lap (1:41:109). It feels that to go beyond that there might be some cuts involved and maybe some setup magic that might allow some exploitative driving or not. It's more unforgiving and natural then others, but it's not by very very much, just feels more unforgiving to recover and snappy, but until that happens, some skating might be still a bit too much... There should be some slip angles that are possible to achieve, but they should feel more on edge and not so much skating, a little bit more "darty" but one should be very aware that a state like that in the car should be very sketchy.

    People confuse "play" on the edge of a car with it being easy to do... It shouldn't be an instant spin death, but it shouldn't also be an enormous margin to play with - slicks that even when thinking of road tires feel to forgiving compared to those...
     
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  7. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    Don't want to go too off topic here, but this would be such a great addition to the sim. It would also be good if you could load the ghost car of previous laps so you could take a look at the line and driving style of other drivers. I hardly ever have the time to commit myself to an actual race and am usually a bit mentally drained to be that serious, but I still want to drive with others and not the AI all the time. Something like this would be a happy medium.
     
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  8. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    I think it is rather large change from previous tire way. This tire is a lot better IMO. Probably it is still bit more on skating side, and less on darty side than it could perhaps be in reality. I find it rather damn close to my expectations with saturated real road and bit softened chassis, and with no less than default rear wing. I feel like I could go under 1'40 in qualification in Monza without doing "exploitative" things like doing crazy throws into excessive yaw angles with big slip angles mid turn, I feel there is much less of it in this tire anyway, but it still exists. I think it is on picky level now, but interesting to discuss anyway.

    I think maybe on green track conditions the tire is too slippery and drifty, on saturated track feels kind of great. Although green road conditions are expected to have less grip, but perhaps it should not permit as much sliding. I don't know it is complicated. While saturated track feels great just perhaps tiny bit too much sliding still.

    Another interesting thing to me is sensitivity to DRS. It feels awesome how massive balance shift can be felt when turning on/off DRS. No doubt massive decrease of downforce and balance shift forward is expected with DRS turned on. But it is crazy how much. It is nearly unbelievable. Majority of accidents I have with this car is because I use DRS at unsafe moments. It makes sense to loose grip at rear end, and get an "icy" sense at the rear with DRS on. But it is insane how sudden the loss of control can happen, the magnitude of grip loss is insane. I was suspecting that perhaps yaw sensitivity for wing in DRS mode is too much. I'd expect wing in DRS reduce in downforce, but also have a lot less stalling when in yaw angles. But I don't know how it really is, anyway there is still a massive diffuser and it stalls too when car starts getting into excessive yaw angle.
     
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  9. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    I expressed myself badly. There a quite substancial differences in the tires (of course relatively). When it comes to some of the "skating", "rallying" sort of driving I would prefer some more edginess to it, like it's possible to do but with more careful inputs I feel like. This also shouldn't be a big problem for online and Competitive racing or anything related. This tires if they don't punish you still enough in terms of control, they will punish you in terms of wear.

    I've been making my laps on high rubber I think, so I need to try the saturated to see if I can get closer to 1:40. Is there a place to see laptimes on this? I saw one on youtube but I beaten that. I think I saw people claiming 1:38s and if so, I need to see what "corner cutting", late braking and better corner exit on slow corners I can optimize.

    Yeah, DRS for me is like I can't turn much more then maybe 4/5 degrees on the wheel (maybe more, but it's very low). I like it though, as where I have problems is normally in a very fast corner before the second chicane and I expect the car to get very sensitive. It's another thing, tires are actually sensitive to a lot of inputs like braking and all, just a tiny bit forgiving on some corners with no DRS, but maybe it's like that and it's really nothing when compared to GTE cars and the sluggish tires... I came to hate driving them actually. Even the FFB doesn't feel quite right because of the tires I'm pretty sure.
     
  10. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Oh yes for sure, tons of FFB feel comes from tires. This BMW in particular makes a very good FFB feel in my opinion with my T300. I am rather exciting that stuff S397 learned (and perhaps keeps on learning) about modern slicks will transfer to their other cars slicks tires. Don't expect them to be the same as those are different tires, different manufacturers, but lots of fundamentals should be similar.

    P.S. I haven't tried this car in rain with its rain tires yet. Still lots to discover.
     
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  11. Rony1984

    Rony1984 Registered

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    I just stopped right in the middle of a lap at Magny-Cours, just to say how severely impressed I am with this car. It's utterly sublime. The way it behaves on/over the limit is the best I've experienced yet. Just try this car at Hockenheim, and accelerate out of the hairpin. The way this car brakes traction and wiggles is exactly the same as in real life, it's nothing short of amazing. I have to be honest and admit that I haven't driven the car enough to know all its quirks and hence flaws, but the first impression is outstanding. I hence like to thank Studio 397 for creating and sharing this beautiful peace of work for free. You guys rock!!
     
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  12. sedesa tatasa

    sedesa tatasa Registered

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    When this car is sliding,the car body is vibrating.
    This robs the grip.As a result,it feels like there is no grip outside the edge.
     
  13. Stefan_L_01

    Stefan_L_01 Registered

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    somehow the suspension telemtry output does not matcht the setup. The given suspension forces and positions result look strange. The Positions are very low, the forces very high and sometimes even different for left / right. In the attachement I took default setup on a flat test track just joining track, no driving. See difference in front suspension forces. The resulting spring stiffnesses would be front 730/250 and rear both ~360N/mm, way higher than setup.
    Probably only a number issue for telemtry output but I wish S397 could fix it thx
    upload_2021-7-4_11-36-51.png
     
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  14. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Around 27:20 some highlights..

    Wow.. look at those moments. In particularly how they almost get airborne off the kerbs when bottoming out, it looks sensational and exciting, crazy. Add better bottoming out physics to the never ending wish list of rF2 physics improvements.

    And wow, this car gets me into DTM. They are actually exciting, it is unfortunate they switch to GT3. But have to check, perhaps it is more the drivers and series itself that offers such exciting moments, not typical GT3 "it's for rich amateurs" boring thing.

    11:50 !


    Imagine having it happening in simulation. Simracers would be like "FFB gets broken on top of Raidillon".
     
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  15. Patrick Schumacher

    Patrick Schumacher Registered

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    There have been discussions to get all manufacturers into the series, Super GT and DTM. Didn't work unfortunately.
    Fuji is a track I would welcome a lot.
     
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  16. pety100

    pety100 Registered

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    This vehicle is very hard to drive without any assist, its not for beginners thats for sure. Driving on the limit looks like you rasp the steering wheel all the time, mainly on the accelerations but it's quite easy to catch the car if the rear steps out but it costs a lot of time. This car should be driven in an another way than all the other cars in this game, and I like that, finally something new.

    I should mention the understeered behavior in the slower corners where the mechanical grip counts more. I tested the car mainly in Paul Richard and in the last corner the car barely wants to turn even at a cornering speed of 50 km/h. I think there should be a bit more mechanical grip of this car, but it's okay.
     
  17. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    I wonder how many cars could take last Paul Ricard turn faster than 50km/h. Maybe a lot, I don't know. Every few extra km/h there would probably require significant differences in tire mechanical grip, chassis roll resistance and low inertia.

    Just out of interest I'll look at some onboards, cause it is interesting.

    Lewis Hamilton in qualification, min speed: 82 km/h (p.s. exciting wobble, correcting over correction just before)


    Martin Konrad GT3, min speed 68 km/h


    So indeed quite a few cars should probably do it over 50km/h.

    I think it is interestign to compare slowest Hockenheim turn.

    DTM Audi, min speed 55km/h


    GT3, min speed 50km/h, so I guess it means that DTM should take last turn of Paul Ricard faster than GT3 too.


    F1, min speed 59km/h
     
  18. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Must come back to this, since I am such a big poster these days, and I have stuff to say.

    First of all, are you sure you were doing only 50km/h in Paul Ricards last turn ? Because I found myself doing minimum 70-71km/h. And I think I could rise this minimum higher by having more rubbered track, and actually focusing on the turn rather than a speedometer. It is one of most difficult turns to go fast IMO, it is always so difficult to enter correctly.

    The same is that slow hairpin thing of Hockenheim. It is just very hard to master these turns, and lookign at speedometer just spoils the focus, it would be better to check in telemetry. Yet I found myself doing this turn at minimum 53-54km/h, that was on fully rubbered setting.

    This and the feeling of the car and its tires got me thinking, that no way it has lack of mechanical grip. It just has rather slim windows at which it starts developing "too much" sliding, and if you'll be able to drive it in those narrow windows at which you avoid sliding, and stay at actual optimum window of this tires, you get plenty of mechanical grip. I understand people are gettign confused by rather severe sliding, but it is not that severe, I keep on recovering tons of slides again and again and again and have lots of confidence with the car. Not with my tire saving skills though - a skill to learn ! I think mechanical grip and less wear can come for all of us if we just learn how to operate the tires at these narrow windows, and just don't let them into slides too often and for too much. These skills may not be too hard to achieve, just few wires to replace in your brain and thats it lol Ok, one may not become Alien like Kevin, who apparently drove this car in its presentation even with apparently little sliding and won the race.

    This car just makes me to love modern racecars in simracign and eventually givign them looks IRL, which I absolutely didn't for a long time. I also begine to like how S397 makes it. But I am just one of many simracers, others may want more easy sliding and less twitching, which is realistic, but challenging.

    Also Paul Ricard and Hockenheim are very fun with this car.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2021
  19. pety100

    pety100 Registered

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    Maybe you are right, the track was not too rubbered, maybe thats why the understeer. + I lowered the rear ARB (detached + 1 click) to find some grip on the exits, maxbe thats why the vehicle don't want to turn in slow corners. :)
     
  20. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    I always use rather soft rear ARBS too. And also springs. And in Paul Ricard I did 5 laps with 10 AI with 4x real road setting, it looked like the track does not have high rubber preset, so I went with natural progression.

    There is one thing which I never use with this BMW. I never use its default steering lock. I always go one click lower, to have little more steering motion. This way it is a bit easier to avoid understeer.

    I hope that helps, to get faster in mechanical grip turns.

    Otherwise, I'd also check your perception. If you have a car that for most part you never get slower than 100km/h, and mostly never get slower than 140 km/h. You may very likely get perception of walking speed at speed like 70km/h. Thats just normal. I once drove 1950s race cars for few months, then I drove GT3 car and it felt like everything in game was accelerated 2x or 3x. It usually takes minutes to readjust.
     

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