Released Released | BMW M4 Class 1 2021

@Sim_Player

Interesting, yes indeed I was only in race sessions. Must try qualification session. But we have our Chaparra 2F mockup car in our 1967 mod, and it also should have flaps, and its rear flap doesn't move to me either, it used to always work. I am weirded out. P.S. How much time does these flaps win for BMW ?

By the way, I used to drive naturally Progressing before. Now I drive heavy real roads. Doesn't seem to provide that much extra grip, but seems to make tires to be less prone to get into sliding, which is nice.

Edit: Yes DRS worked in Q session. What a waste of time hotlapping this without DRS, it gives ~1.5s or more faster laptimes. Also insta death if turned on wrong moment.
 
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Nieubermesch said:
The car has lots of grip. It's a very fast car at accelaration, so it's difficult to manage this in corner exits that are slow, without no ABS or TC, don't forget that.

Difficult doesn't mean realistic, but more difficult then what GT cars are right now is more realistic. I like the new tires and don't forget this car is stiff as a brick... It will be edgy, not like the GT cars with softer suspensions all around, in wich the tires will not feel the same.
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mantasisg said:
@Sim_Player

Interesting, yes indeed I was only in race sessions. Must try qualification session. But we have our Chaparra 2F mockup car in our 1967 mod, and it also should have flaps, and its rear flap doesn't move to me either, it used to always work. I am weirded out. P.S. How much time does these flaps win for BMW ?

By the way, I used to drive naturally Progressing before. Now I drive heavy real roads. Doesn't seem to provide that much extra grip, but seems to make tires to be less prone to get into sliding, which is nice.

Edit: Yes DRS worked in Q session. What a waste of time hotlapping this without DRS, it gives ~1.5s or more faster laptimes. Also insta death if turned on wrong moment.
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Yeah, I enable DRS after the first chicane but really have to be careful with the steering - minimum as possible. My best is a 1:41:107 right now.
 
Initially i thought this car has no mechanical grip at all. Lowering the rear wing from default 28 to 19 made the car absolutely undriveable. And i dont use that word lightly. I usually like cars that others call that.
I mean, i couldn't get out of the pits without spinning.
But i started tinkering the setup, just for fun. I didn't expect any magical low wing setting to be found, that would make me super fast. I realize that these cars are made to have high aero grip, and the gear ratio proofs that pretty clearly, as you can get almost to max revs with 6th gear with default wing.
But like i said, just for fun, i started digging the mechanical grip under the rock, to see if there is anything there.
I ended up with setup, with that wing 19, that is slower than with default wing. but only about 2-2.5 seconds slower in Silverstone. I am able to set relatively consistent laptimes with it, and the time loss comes mainly from having to lift the throttle, and especially delay opening it in many places to act as traction control to compensate the loss acceleration, and cornering grip.

I'll share it here, even tough it has no real value, as it is slower like i said, but maybe someone who enjoys ovals could have some use for it, or i maybe it could be used as template for those yearning mechanical grip for their setup, and start to build their setup on top of this.
I was surprised how driveable i actually became with almost no rear aero grip. So to say, there is no mechanical grip, is just not true. The car actually bounces on bumps mid corner some places, just like no aero car would.
Anyways, here you go:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/167...70p3X0f5uPRCqmjCzG3u9ylISvz4/view?usp=sharing

Edit. it's made in silverstone, and is slightly un symmertical in tires tab, (cambers + pressure) to work there. For ovals, reverse the camber un symmerty atleast.
 
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mantasisg said:
@Sim_Player

Interesting, yes indeed I was only in race sessions. Must try qualification session. But we have our Chaparra 2F mockup car in our 1967 mod, and it also should have flaps, and its rear flap doesn't move to me either, it used to always work. I am weirded out. P.S. How much time does these flaps win for BMW ?

By the way, I used to drive naturally Progressing before. Now I drive heavy real roads. Doesn't seem to provide that much extra grip, but seems to make tires to be less prone to get into sliding, which is nice.

Edit: Yes DRS worked in Q session. What a waste of time hotlapping this without DRS, it gives ~1.5s or more faster laptimes. Also insta death if turned on wrong moment.
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Remember with the 2F you have to manually edit the front flap to match the rear flap. DRS has no front flap so if you are trying to use the controller profile from the 2F, you are probably toggling DRSon/off in a mini-micro-second. Create a new DRS only profile and assign only the rear flap. The DRS indicator on the dash will change color when you have sucessfully enabled DRS
 
mantasisg said:
Hey, why can't I make rear flap to work, is it some new UI thing ?

Saying that this car is undrivable and also saying that older ISI content is undrivable, is one way of saying that you can not drive. But I understand if when modern gamers mind faces real difficulties it refuses to believe. IT is a bubble gamers have been living for decades now since game designers learned how to make most money from games.

This being said, I can not enjoy this car with default setup, it is too easily overdriven to me too. I need slower steering, softer chassis, less rear toe to make it slow enough for how slow I am myself. Not less than default rear wing, otherwise it is too hard not to slide it. And being unable not to slide it too much I am unable to keep tires alive for longer. It is suspicious how fast abrasive wear is, and I know due to modding that abrassive wear affects amount of grip during slides, at the same time it makes sense to loose so much rubber with that much skating. Hot vs cold temps does really seem not to have much of effect, or I am just too busy to notice it, but tires seems to be slidey just the same all the time, and more as abrasive wear goes under 90% and bellow that, which is few Monza laps in.

In Monza I do feel comfortable and immersed and can almost not overdrive at ~1'43'5 pace, can't not overdrive when going in 1'42, and getting bellow 1'42 requires abuse. Normally I'd drive at ~1'43 and be chill about it, car feel true to life the way it drives, just perhaps bit eager to slide much still with friendly setup. But it messes with mind knowing that you are still five seconds off-pace. But maybe I am just slow like that and perhaps loose a bit due to not working flap. Sliding does seem too constant, but can't ignore skill factor.

I wonder how it's pace matches real life. Perhaps this tire is still too much skating, I find myself a lot at excessive yaw angles. It is not so hard to drive, but it is weird to be already at such instability when being 4 seconds off pace. Well perhaps just because lack of skill ? Perhaps it is normal with moderate amount of rear wing downforce and with qualification engine mixture. Perhaps it is not the best car for preview of newer tire logic because how brutal this car is. At the same time this tire is not a miracle either, it still has that skate thing going on, but on the other side is iRacing anti sliding logic, which perhaps is not that wrong untill it isn't overdone, but apparently much unloved by simracers/gamers because it makes stuff more serious.

For example, if this cars rF2 tire had stiffer bristle springs it would make it more - iRacing like, and i see people complainign about this tires edgyness already. Let me say this - you are asking for more widely distributed sliding. Because if you get tire that slides less, you just get tire that slides harder and later, because otherwise it would have too much total grip. Choose one: forgiveness and predictable but annoying sliding vs unforgiving and less predictable, but also less often present sliding ?
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I'm finding that slip angles can still be abused a little bit too much after chasing a good lap (1:41:109). It feels that to go beyond that there might be some cuts involved and maybe some setup magic that might allow some exploitative driving or not. It's more unforgiving and natural then others, but it's not by very very much, just feels more unforgiving to recover and snappy, but until that happens, some skating might be still a bit too much... There should be some slip angles that are possible to achieve, but they should feel more on edge and not so much skating, a little bit more "darty" but one should be very aware that a state like that in the car should be very sketchy.

People confuse "play" on the edge of a car with it being easy to do... It shouldn't be an instant spin death, but it shouldn't also be an enormous margin to play with - slicks that even when thinking of road tires feel to forgiving compared to those...
 
Kelju_K said:
Thank you for your reply, and apologies if i came out condescending. Not my intention.

And i have nothing negative to say about your competition system at all. Definitely not too many races.

But i still root for this kind of hotlap table system. As it doesn't have any schedule you have to follow. You could just hop on the server, and do your laps, when ever it suits you. We all have enough schedule in our lives.

When AMS 1 was released, shortly after they added this hotlap system, that was very popular. It had the option to share the setup you made your lap, with others. This is basically what i'm after, for several reasons:


#1 Sometimes you feel fast, but without any reference to others, it's hard to tell. Like i said in my earlier post, because of this reference, i have been able to improve my laptime with more than 2 seconds. Even when i felt that i did ok initially.

#2 im sure there are many who would just like to see how fast others are in general, what are the alien times, and so on.

#3 The setup sharing option would be very useful for people who's free time is limited, or who struggle with setups due lack of experience. If one could find a person in that table, (who chooses to share his setups) that he finds makes setups that suit his driving style/preference, he could always look his setups from the database.

4# last but definitely not least, this kind of system could be very beneficial data collection tool to help you in your development work. You could see if the fastest laptimes are made with setups, that drive anything like you intended them to drive. There could be even another "tick box", [share setup with development team] if someone wishes to stay competitive against their rivals, but wishes to help you in your work.
(Altough, you could propably collect the data by some fine print in the end user license agreement, that nobody ever read :D, but i'm sure most would consent if you asked).


You could use this data in further development, and blocking (exploit) holes in the physics, and you could also use the information, to analyze with you partners, if the fastest times are made with even remotely similar setups and car behavior, as they are made in the real world.

Thanks again for you time and attention to the forum.
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Don't want to go too off topic here, but this would be such a great addition to the sim. It would also be good if you could load the ghost car of previous laps so you could take a look at the line and driving style of other drivers. I hardly ever have the time to commit myself to an actual race and am usually a bit mentally drained to be that serious, but I still want to drive with others and not the AI all the time. Something like this would be a happy medium.
 
Nieubermesch said:
I'm finding that slip angles can still be abused a little bit too much after chasing a good lap (1:41:109). It feels that to go beyond that there might be some cuts involved and maybe some setup magic that might allow some exploitative driving or not. It's more unforgiving and natural then others, but it's not by very very much, just feels more unforgiving to recover and snappy, but until that happens, some skating might be still a bit too much... There should be some slip angles that are possible to achieve, but they should feel more on edge and not so much skating, a little bit more "darty" but one should be very aware that a state like that in the car should be very sketchy.

People confuse "play" on the edge of a car with it being easy to do... It shouldn't be an instant spin death, but it shouldn't also be an enormous margin to play with - slicks that even when thinking of road tires feel to forgiving compared to those...
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I think it is rather large change from previous tire way. This tire is a lot better IMO. Probably it is still bit more on skating side, and less on darty side than it could perhaps be in reality. I find it rather damn close to my expectations with saturated real road and bit softened chassis, and with no less than default rear wing. I feel like I could go under 1'40 in qualification in Monza without doing "exploitative" things like doing crazy throws into excessive yaw angles with big slip angles mid turn, I feel there is much less of it in this tire anyway, but it still exists. I think it is on picky level now, but interesting to discuss anyway.

I think maybe on green track conditions the tire is too slippery and drifty, on saturated track feels kind of great. Although green road conditions are expected to have less grip, but perhaps it should not permit as much sliding. I don't know it is complicated. While saturated track feels great just perhaps tiny bit too much sliding still.

Another interesting thing to me is sensitivity to DRS. It feels awesome how massive balance shift can be felt when turning on/off DRS. No doubt massive decrease of downforce and balance shift forward is expected with DRS turned on. But it is crazy how much. It is nearly unbelievable. Majority of accidents I have with this car is because I use DRS at unsafe moments. It makes sense to loose grip at rear end, and get an "icy" sense at the rear with DRS on. But it is insane how sudden the loss of control can happen, the magnitude of grip loss is insane. I was suspecting that perhaps yaw sensitivity for wing in DRS mode is too much. I'd expect wing in DRS reduce in downforce, but also have a lot less stalling when in yaw angles. But I don't know how it really is, anyway there is still a massive diffuser and it stalls too when car starts getting into excessive yaw angle.
 
mantasisg said:
I think it is rather large change from previous tire way. This tire is a lot better IMO. Probably it is still bit more on skating side, and less on darty side than it could perhaps be in reality. I find it rather damn close to my expectations with saturated real road and bit softened chassis, and with no less than default rear wing. I feel like I could go under 1'40 in qualification in Monza without doing "exploitative" things like doing crazy throws into excessive yaw angles with big slip angles mid turn, I feel there is much less of it in this tire anyway, but it still exists. I think it is on picky level now, but interesting to discuss anyway.

I think maybe on green track conditions the tire is too slippery and drifty, on saturated track feels kind of great. Although green road conditions are expected to have less grip, but perhaps it should not permit as much sliding. I don't know it is complicated. While saturated track feels great just perhaps tiny bit too much sliding still.

Another interesting thing to me is sensitivity to DRS. It feels awesome how massive balance shift can be felt when turning on/off DRS. No doubt massive decrease of downforce and balance shift forward is expected with DRS turned on. But it is crazy how much. It is nearly unbelievable. Majority of accidents I have with this car is because I use DRS at unsafe moments. It makes sense to loose grip at rear end, and get an "icy" sense at the rear with DRS on. But it is insane how sudden the loss of control can happen, the magnitude of grip loss is insane. I was suspecting that perhaps yaw sensitivity for wing in DRS mode is too much. I'd expect wing in DRS reduce in downforce, but also have a lot less stalling when in yaw angles. But I don't know how it really is, anyway there is still a massive diffuser and it stalls too when car starts getting into excessive yaw angle.
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I expressed myself badly. There a quite substancial differences in the tires (of course relatively). When it comes to some of the "skating", "rallying" sort of driving I would prefer some more edginess to it, like it's possible to do but with more careful inputs I feel like. This also shouldn't be a big problem for online and Competitive racing or anything related. This tires if they don't punish you still enough in terms of control, they will punish you in terms of wear.

I've been making my laps on high rubber I think, so I need to try the saturated to see if I can get closer to 1:40. Is there a place to see laptimes on this? I saw one on youtube but I beaten that. I think I saw people claiming 1:38s and if so, I need to see what "corner cutting", late braking and better corner exit on slow corners I can optimize.

Yeah, DRS for me is like I can't turn much more then maybe 4/5 degrees on the wheel (maybe more, but it's very low). I like it though, as where I have problems is normally in a very fast corner before the second chicane and I expect the car to get very sensitive. It's another thing, tires are actually sensitive to a lot of inputs like braking and all, just a tiny bit forgiving on some corners with no DRS, but maybe it's like that and it's really nothing when compared to GTE cars and the sluggish tires... I came to hate driving them actually. Even the FFB doesn't feel quite right because of the tires I'm pretty sure.
 
Nieubermesch said:
Even the FFB doesn't feel quite right because of the tires I'm pretty sure.
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Oh yes for sure, tons of FFB feel comes from tires. This BMW in particular makes a very good FFB feel in my opinion with my T300. I am rather exciting that stuff S397 learned (and perhaps keeps on learning) about modern slicks will transfer to their other cars slicks tires. Don't expect them to be the same as those are different tires, different manufacturers, but lots of fundamentals should be similar.

P.S. I haven't tried this car in rain with its rain tires yet. Still lots to discover.
 
I just stopped right in the middle of a lap at Magny-Cours, just to say how severely impressed I am with this car. It's utterly sublime. The way it behaves on/over the limit is the best I've experienced yet. Just try this car at Hockenheim, and accelerate out of the hairpin. The way this car brakes traction and wiggles is exactly the same as in real life, it's nothing short of amazing. I have to be honest and admit that I haven't driven the car enough to know all its quirks and hence flaws, but the first impression is outstanding. I hence like to thank Studio 397 for creating and sharing this beautiful peace of work for free. You guys rock!!
 
somehow the suspension telemtry output does not matcht the setup. The given suspension forces and positions result look strange. The Positions are very low, the forces very high and sometimes even different for left / right. In the attachement I took default setup on a flat test track just joining track, no driving. See difference in front suspension forces. The resulting spring stiffnesses would be front 730/250 and rear both ~360N/mm, way higher than setup.
Probably only a number issue for telemtry output but I wish S397 could fix it thx
upload_2021-7-4_11-36-51.png
 
Around 27:20 some highlights..

Wow.. look at those moments. In particularly how they almost get airborne off the kerbs when bottoming out, it looks sensational and exciting, crazy. Add better bottoming out physics to the never ending wish list of rF2 physics improvements.

And wow, this car gets me into DTM. They are actually exciting, it is unfortunate they switch to GT3. But have to check, perhaps it is more the drivers and series itself that offers such exciting moments, not typical GT3 "it's for rich amateurs" boring thing.

11:50 !

Imagine having it happening in simulation. Simracers would be like "FFB gets broken on top of Raidillon".
 
This vehicle is very hard to drive without any assist, its not for beginners thats for sure. Driving on the limit looks like you rasp the steering wheel all the time, mainly on the accelerations but it's quite easy to catch the car if the rear steps out but it costs a lot of time. This car should be driven in an another way than all the other cars in this game, and I like that, finally something new.

I should mention the understeered behavior in the slower corners where the mechanical grip counts more. I tested the car mainly in Paul Richard and in the last corner the car barely wants to turn even at a cornering speed of 50 km/h. I think there should be a bit more mechanical grip of this car, but it's okay.
 
I wonder how many cars could take last Paul Ricard turn faster than 50km/h. Maybe a lot, I don't know. Every few extra km/h there would probably require significant differences in tire mechanical grip, chassis roll resistance and low inertia.

Just out of interest I'll look at some onboards, cause it is interesting.

Lewis Hamilton in qualification, min speed: 82 km/h (p.s. exciting wobble, correcting over correction just before)

Martin Konrad GT3, min speed 68 km/h

So indeed quite a few cars should probably do it over 50km/h.

I think it is interestign to compare slowest Hockenheim turn.

DTM Audi, min speed 55km/h

GT3, min speed 50km/h, so I guess it means that DTM should take last turn of Paul Ricard faster than GT3 too.

F1, min speed 59km/h
 
pety100 said:
This vehicle is very hard to drive without any assist, its not for beginners thats for sure. Driving on the limit looks like you rasp the steering wheel all the time, mainly on the accelerations but it's quite easy to catch the car if the rear steps out but it costs a lot of time. This car should be driven in an another way than all the other cars in this game, and I like that, finally something new.

I should mention the understeered behavior in the slower corners where the mechanical grip counts more. I tested the car mainly in Paul Richard and in the last corner the car barely wants to turn even at a cornering speed of 50 km/h. I think there should be a bit more mechanical grip of this car, but it's okay.
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Must come back to this, since I am such a big poster these days, and I have stuff to say.

First of all, are you sure you were doing only 50km/h in Paul Ricards last turn ? Because I found myself doing minimum 70-71km/h. And I think I could rise this minimum higher by having more rubbered track, and actually focusing on the turn rather than a speedometer. It is one of most difficult turns to go fast IMO, it is always so difficult to enter correctly.

The same is that slow hairpin thing of Hockenheim. It is just very hard to master these turns, and lookign at speedometer just spoils the focus, it would be better to check in telemetry. Yet I found myself doing this turn at minimum 53-54km/h, that was on fully rubbered setting.

This and the feeling of the car and its tires got me thinking, that no way it has lack of mechanical grip. It just has rather slim windows at which it starts developing "too much" sliding, and if you'll be able to drive it in those narrow windows at which you avoid sliding, and stay at actual optimum window of this tires, you get plenty of mechanical grip. I understand people are gettign confused by rather severe sliding, but it is not that severe, I keep on recovering tons of slides again and again and again and have lots of confidence with the car. Not with my tire saving skills though - a skill to learn ! I think mechanical grip and less wear can come for all of us if we just learn how to operate the tires at these narrow windows, and just don't let them into slides too often and for too much. These skills may not be too hard to achieve, just few wires to replace in your brain and thats it lol Ok, one may not become Alien like Kevin, who apparently drove this car in its presentation even with apparently little sliding and won the race.

This car just makes me to love modern racecars in simracign and eventually givign them looks IRL, which I absolutely didn't for a long time. I also begine to like how S397 makes it. But I am just one of many simracers, others may want more easy sliding and less twitching, which is realistic, but challenging.

Also Paul Ricard and Hockenheim are very fun with this car.
 
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mantasisg said:
Must come back to this, since I am such a big poster these days, and I have stuff to say.

First of all, are you sure you were doing only 50km/h in Paul Ricards last turn ? Because I found myself doing minimum 70-71km/h. And I think I could rise this minimum higher by having more rubbered track, and actually focusing on the turn rather than a speedometer. It is one of most difficult turns to go fast IMO, it is always so difficult to enter correctly.

The same is that slow hairpin thing of Hockenheim. It is just very hard to master these turns, and lookign at speedometer just spoils the focus, it would be better to check in telemetry. Yet I found myself doing this turn at minimum 53-54km/h, that was on fully rubbered setting.

This and the feeling of the car and its tires got me thinking, that no way it has lack of mechanical grip. It just has rather slim windows at which it starts developing "too much" sliding, and if you'll be able to drive it in those narrow windows at which you avoid sliding, and stay at actual optimum window of this tires, you get plenty of mechanical grip. I understand people are gettign confused by rather severe sliding, but it is not that severe, I keep on recovering tons of slides again and again and again and have lots of confidence with the car. Not with my tire saving skills though - a skill to learn ! I think mechanical grip and less wear can come for all of us if we just learn how to operate the tires at these narrow windows, and just don't let them into slides too often and for too much. These skills may not be too hard to achieve, just few wires to replace in your brain and thats it lol Ok, one may not become Alien like Kevin, who apparently drove this car in its presentation even with apparently little sliding and won the race.

This car just makes me to love modern racecars in simracign and eventually givign them looks IRL, which I absolutely didn't for a long time. I also begine to like how S397 makes it. But I am just one of many simracers, others may want more easy sliding and less twitching, which is realistic, but challenging.

Also Paul Ricard and Hockenheim are very fun with this car.
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Maybe you are right, the track was not too rubbered, maybe thats why the understeer. + I lowered the rear ARB (detached + 1 click) to find some grip on the exits, maxbe thats why the vehicle don't want to turn in slow corners. :)
 
pety100 said:
Maybe you are right, the track was not too rubbered, maybe thats why the understeer. + I lowered the rear ARB (detached + 1 click) to find some grip on the exits, maxbe thats why the vehicle don't want to turn in slow corners. :)
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I always use rather soft rear ARBS too. And also springs. And in Paul Ricard I did 5 laps with 10 AI with 4x real road setting, it looked like the track does not have high rubber preset, so I went with natural progression.

There is one thing which I never use with this BMW. I never use its default steering lock. I always go one click lower, to have little more steering motion. This way it is a bit easier to avoid understeer.

I hope that helps, to get faster in mechanical grip turns.

Otherwise, I'd also check your perception. If you have a car that for most part you never get slower than 100km/h, and mostly never get slower than 140 km/h. You may very likely get perception of walking speed at speed like 70km/h. Thats just normal. I once drove 1950s race cars for few months, then I drove GT3 car and it felt like everything in game was accelerated 2x or 3x. It usually takes minutes to readjust.
 
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