rear end feels unnatural

Discussion in 'Technical Archives' started by vilivili, Jan 12, 2012.

  1. vilivili

    vilivili Registered

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    this is a good point

    let's see if someone has some good ideas.. could it be anywhere else than in the tyres?
     
  2. vilivili

    vilivili Registered

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    I was having avg 60-70fps earlier (tridef software drops it 'cos no build in 3d) and after lowering gfx settings and turned 3d off, I now tried rF2 with over 200fps.
    That was a goodbye for ffb and input latencies. together with the build 60 feels better/bit more natural.

    I remember it was said somewhere that rF2 would have separate physics and gfx ticking rate but seems that with 60 fps graphics the physics aren't still ticking quick enough...
     
  3. Mechamorafa

    Mechamorafa Registered

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    For me the physics in rFactor 2 feels just wrong. The way that car behaves is not natural.

    I wouldn´t say that the wild rear is the problem. I think that it is just a consequence of a poor engine.

    The car bounces on the road in a very unnatural way. The car in turns 1 and 2 in Sepang, for example, feels really wierd. Bouncing, sliding and losing contact with the road with the FFB shaking the wheel violently at 60kmph.

    To drive a car in rFactor 2 it is like drive on wet track, to avoid sliding the tires you need to slow down too much in the corners and when you lose control, sometimes it is impossible to get it back.

    I was playing rFactor 2 for a couple hours and then I switched to nKPro. I was amazed how real it felt, I think I had forgotten how good this game was. The amount of grip, the progressiveness of the grip, how care behaves in the edge of control, the tire temperature simulation. Everything feels right. When driving in rFactor 2 I am always waiting for some unexpected lost of control.

    Lack of grip does not mean good simulation, hard control of car does not mean good simulation and definitely unnatural felling of car is not good simulation.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 20, 2012
  4. mikeyk1985

    mikeyk1985 Registered

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    This is so true. I only notice it in the Formula Renault 3.5 but it's undriveable thru that corner at anything other than extremely low speeds. The tyre temps go crazy and smoke poors from the tyres. To me it seems like the tyre physics are now so good they demand a perfectly smooth race track, with bumps only in select places.
     
  5. O11

    O11 Registered

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    I thinks you can just feel it already when the car slides a little. In rF1 I coud only feel it when the car went out of shape, so to say. But now I can feel a lot of sliding long before the car really loses grip. You have to get used to it and not see is as losing grip. It's just "the edge". Try to play inside that zone. Really losing lateral grip comes loooooong after the initial feeling of sliding.
     
  6. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    I don't drive FR, also I don't use Sepang, but from description it sounds to me that track is too bumpy for car's suspension setup or suspension setup is too firm/low for track, well those corners.

    Could it be that car's bottom is hitting to surface of track on that place or maybe suspension just bottoms out?

    I doubt that it has much to do with tires themselves, but more of those mentioned other things.

    Just for testing purposes you could set ride height to max and suspension to softest possible setting and observe does it still do the same?

    Would be also interesting to know size of bumps in that section of track, maybe there is bug in them? When all possibilities are explored then reason is known and correct solution is easy to apply.
     
  7. patryksok.

    patryksok. Registered

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    That what mikeyk1985 wrote is only bad driving, overdriving the car and bad suspension setup, nothing more ;)
     
  8. mikeyk1985

    mikeyk1985 Registered

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    I was about to come back and say that the car is not set up for the track when this happens. But my real point is even with a stiff setup it behaves in an unbelievable way. The car jumps like it is on belgian parve at times when on supposedly smooth tarmac. I know turn 1 at sepang is a hard corner in real life but the FR 3.5 behave's very strangely at most tracks.
     
  9. David G Fisher

    David G Fisher Registered

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    Wheel, wheel configuration, setup, and talent were often the true reasons one person couldn't drive a car in rF like another could.
     
  10. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    I can't make such conclusion, first it would be impolite and I try to avoid such, even if it would be true, exhausting other options first, experimenting, observing should make driver himself aware of true reason without need to be impolite. Secondly there is way too little data for me to conclude it being just bad driving and setup.

    Of course even I don't drive open wheelers, I am aware of how quite largely it is thought that stiffer is better handling and thus leading poor setups for certain conditions, but without seeing or knowing about setup I can only suggest to test different approach and see if there is change in behavior.

    Generally if one setups car suspension for roughest part for track he is able to drive it faster around the track, even it is bit more vague at high speed section, softer is more grip, more vague, stiffer is more precise and often less available grip, with rF2 this is what will actually be new thing as tracks are no longer perfectly smooth and it is big step towards realism from game setups that many have to face, there will be lot of head beating to brick wall in coming year with this aspect alone.

    Setting up car is going to change indeed, that is one thing I look forward to.

    Here is some thought about this subject that probably many will not get at first, but think about it, it is about setups and 'rules' or 'guidelines' which are manifested as truths.
    There is 1000 rights which are thousand wrongs, variable is situation, truth is many.
     
  11. ndunnett

    ndunnett Registered

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    Don't know what everyone is complaining about, feels good to me. Not perfect but I can't see/feel any major flaws in the physics. The only time I get uncatchable slides is when I drive like a dickhead and go too rough on the inputs. As for the FR at T1/2 Sepang, I agree there is something not right about the way it rides the bumps (which I would think is more about the suspension, which is more relevant to the mod not the entire physics engine) but otherwise there is nothing majorly wrong. The FFB could be better, it's a bit light and doesn't feel fully connected to the road like I would imagine a 'wings and slicks' single seater should. It can be tail happy coming out of corners but that is only when you grab a heap of lock and drive with a lead foot. Those of you having trouble - lower your steering lock and take it easy on the throttle, I suspect the main problem is people are jumping straight into it trying to break lap records then chuck a hissy fit when the tyres won't cope. The reason it seems so 'unnatural' is because when driving sims you don't have all of your natural senses, anyone who has actually raced something before would know that you can easily feel even the slightest change of yaw, in other words you can feel a slide coming on long before it gets out of hand. This feeling is non existant in sims, and there is nothing the developers can do about it, you just need to drive with this in mind and learn the car more to try to get a sense of slide through the FFB.
     
  12. Jorgen

    Jorgen Registered

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    Not sure if it applies here, but I have also wondered about why the FR3.5 car bounces around so much in the low speed corners. At one point I installed the MoTeC plugin and inspected the ride height, and it seemed as if no matter what I did in terms of springs, bump/rebound damping or ride height, the car still bottomed out quite often. Maybe the FR3.5 just doesn't have enough suspension travel to cope with the size of the bumps? It does not only occur at Sepang, the same phenomenon occurs at Estoril too. Mills is a lot better though.
     
  13. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    Isn't tires in those cars big part of suspension too, they act bit of springs?

    Isn't tire pressure effects still WIP and not implemented fully?

    Now if those are yes, then I would say let's wait a moment until making any solid conclusions about their handling ;)
     
  14. Guineapiggy

    Guineapiggy Registered

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    Also, I'm going to have to outright state it. It has been said before but it is still true - what most people 'feel' is realistic just plain isn't. Expectations should be reset with simulation software and a lot of people don't seem to do that. I seem to be able to understand the car more and hold slides more with even with my keyboard than some seem to think is possible with an expensive FFB wheel. I do think there are minor issues with the FRenault atm and, of course, the tyre model isn't actually fully implemented but I swear people just come in expecting to be able to catch and hold cars like a professional, or a select few mistaking drifting-heavy arcade titles and semi-sims which I'm convinced is the main cause of this kind of complaint.
     
  15. Flaux

    Flaux Registered

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    FR3.5 feels good when the suspension is soften. It kills almost all shocks and gives a stable ride. You can nicely control the snap oversteer with some fast short counter steers and minimum throttle. When the track get's grip and the tires are warm, around 4-5 laps, the rear is grippy enough and you can fully accelerate out of corners without fear.

    Wonder how many peeps here really tried the hole setup-range of the fr3.5. It took me about 4 hours to get a good base-setup and it will take me another 4 hours to get it to a sweet spot on only one track configuration.

    BTW: I also started with "what the **** happens here at sepang in turn 1 and 2" and I was even more stunned by the wheel-hopping while accelerating. That by the way is the first time to see such behavior in a sim afaik. Well done. Also the snap-oversteer is nice. Not wanted in a perfect setup, but nice to have as it adds some realism. :)
     
  16. vilivili

    vilivili Registered

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    yea this is the main cause. everythings fine...
     
  17. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    I like how one can affect snap oversteer by driving style, well only with Megane I have found such to happen as I don't drive wing cars, but with different driving one can lead car around the corner balancing with grip and slide without fear from snap oversteer.

    I think that you have got it quite well what setup is all about and how to use those settings correctly, for many it will be shock as there is no longer that magic solution of low ride height and extra stiff suspension, then learning correct timing to make turn, braking and acceleration, but now one need to indeed adapt and feel the car more, that also will make challenges for some.

    I wonder how many complaints behavior of cars will get when they enable this kind of possibilities:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tfXzvAXpgc
     
  18. Flaux

    Flaux Registered

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    Well dunno if this is a superb laptime, but I took a short break to drive the fr3.5 round sepang with 8laps of fuel and did a 1:47.500 min. in lap 4. Would never have done that with that default-setup.

    Tell me your times, I'm interested. Should be still on topic I guess!?! If not just leave it. :eek:
     
  19. Mechamorafa

    Mechamorafa Registered

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    My best lap with FR3.5 in Sepang full course is about 1:49 low, usually in fourth lap too. But I fell that I can be way faster than this if I could get more grip in this car. My setup is pretty much the default setup, with softer springs.

    With Megane in Sepang North Loop my best lap is about 1:01 low. This car is much more handleable than the FR3.5. I don´t think I can do better than this.

    I really like open wheel, but I don´t like the feeling of driving in rF2 with the FR3.5, specially in Sepang. This track doesn´t have that much bumps in real life, specially in turns 1 and 2. If it was like that in real life, it would be impossible for the Formula 1 to race there, because a F1 car is very sensitive to bumpy tracks.

    This video below shows a F1 car in Sepang. Notice that neither the suspension nor the head of F. Massa shake in turns 1 and 2. No bumps at all.




    I really hope that something is done about it.
     
  20. Guineapiggy

    Guineapiggy Registered

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    I see shaking... I'd also point out that F1 cars are really stiff, extremely high downforce, the drivers are especially strong-necked and that T-Cams have vibration cancelling gizmos. You can see two from when he passes the white line prior to turn 1, (the first one being pretty jarring) as well as a good few more as he rolls to the apex, a couple more as he winds towards the inside again past mid-corner and you'll notice his front-left goes light (if not actually getting air) in to turn 2 as well as a slight bump more. I agree that it isn't perfect in rF2 yet but to call the track smooth ignores obvious bumpiness and the tyre model isn't fully finished so I'd wait that out first, tyre flex is especially important to high-downforce single seaters.
     

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