rear end feels unnatural

Discussion in 'Technical Archives' started by vilivili, Jan 12, 2012.

  1. David G Fisher

    David G Fisher Registered

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    Completely different experience for me. My first laps with the Megane were at the new Mills. I had no idea where the new layout was taking me, but I did 12 clean laps to memorize the track, and was in the 1:08's by the time I stopped on lap 13. The whole time I was impressed by how much I felt in control of the car.
     
  2. Bty

    Bty Registered

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    The default megane setup is very tail happy.

    Increase the spoiler by 1 dot. Harden the front sprins & dampers, increase the front ARB and soften the rear springs and dampers.
    Now the car has a much more neutral feelings, still if you turn in too quickly into a fast corner you are in a big surprise.

    This is what I love about rf2, the fast corners, no more turn in as much as you want, you need to be mighty-quick and precise with the steering.

    Also increase the steering ratio and/or lower the steering lock.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 20, 2012
  3. Niksounds

    Niksounds Registered

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    Guys,

    use throttle + brakes in modulation at the SAME TIME to control a incoming spin.
    The percentual depends to the situation

    Drive really =)

    Fantastic reaction of the car.

    I'm driving the megane now and it's really a good job !!

    WOW!
     
  4. TonyRickard

    TonyRickard Registered

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    My first laps were difficult but I believe that was down to fps issues rendering any feel of the car as off. My first reaction was the physics suck but that was proven wrong when I got it running a lot smoother. After that I completely agree (with the 60s cars that I have tried) it feels natural to build up rather than crash and work backwards. FPS can have a huge impact on feel and trying to evaluate the underlying physics in my experience.
     
  5. CrossWiseLikeSo

    CrossWiseLikeSo Registered

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    Just to muddy (or chum, more like it, given the vitriol) the waters even further - I wonder if some of the people who have been having issues predicting rear end movement and sensing grip may not in fact have the damping parameter on their controllers turned way down. From a quick scan of the new controller.ini, it seems as though ISI now has rF2 generating steering resistance via damping rather than friction by default (the latter is still an option, though). I noticed the other day that when I switched from playing LFS (for which I run zero damping combined with a bit of 'drift' on my Fanatec) back to rF2 that the steering felt horrible, and it wasn't until I set it back to 100% damping that I regained some semblance of feedback. If anyone needs me, I'll be in my flamesuit.
     
  6. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    I did test Megane at old Monaco and was surprised how good it actually was, I did like how braking was really improved over rF1, no more slamming brakes at middle of corner.

    Default setup however is useless, I set rear springs and dampers as loose as possible, same for front, but for front I made 1-2 clicks tighter, put bit more air to tires, steering lock to 22 degrees, ride height to 100mm, rear bit more negative camber than front and front toe 1mm in, that way it stopped being snap oversteer at corners and bumps, it is quite easy to find the limit, but I need 2-3 laps of warm up before I can start to bring up the speed, so that tire temps start to stay up a bit at straights too.

    Also I have learned to 35 FOV so driving from default FOV results mostly spinning, same for high steering lock, those two together make already quite good improvement.

    What is then correct and what is not, can't really say much to that one, but there are really lot of things affecting and it is not necessarily very straight forward to judge. At least there is now some whiplash effect and it is possible for car to start 'writing' as we call it here when you are bit slow to correct and tail goes left, right, left, right, in rF1 it was almost impossible to create that so that everything else would of been in realistic level.

    At least I need a lot more driving to tell anything, also would need a lot of playing with creating new tires etc. Also as tires are not yet finished, there is probably going to be some changes that might change how cars drive, it really is too early to make any judgement for me at least.
     
  7. Dave Millard

    Dave Millard Registered

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    I feel the cars feel very realistic, predicable, and I am able to catch slides for the most part.
     
  8. Old Hat

    Old Hat Registered

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    My initial reaction is that it feels great. Controllability on the limit (and over) but punishing you if you take too much liberty - as it should. This could be what I've been looking for.

    Do ISI give refunds to those who've gone and sub'd to iRacing? :)

    Shame about the graphics though....
     
  9. vilivili

    vilivili Registered

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    thx for your help but unfortunately I had been playing with controller.ini before starting this thread. I don't think it's in controller file but instead in the tyremodel. Let's wait for tyre model update
     
  10. CrossWiseLikeSo

    CrossWiseLikeSo Registered

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    vilivili,

    Thank you for responding to my post. I had actually meant the damping parameter found in the Logitech Wingman device management utility (the same one you set the steering lock with), and not the one in the controller.ini. Have you tried dialing up the damping value in there yet? Speaking of the controller.ini, have you also tried changing the "sensitivity" value from 1.00000 to 2.00000? I happened to chance upon it yesterday, and I've had a much better time catching slides since then. The feedback has become almost nKPro-like, in that losing grip on the front end no longer causes steering forces to wash out, which in turn allows you to balance the car more effectively on the throttle. And even when things do get out of shape, often a quick twitch of opposite lock will save the day. I really hope you will be able to find success getting things sorted out. Best of luck, mate. I will concede, though, that as of now, the tyre model does seem a little "dry," in that grip does appear to evaporate rather abruptly once you're past the optimum slip angle, but that may be down to the values being used rather than the model itself. Apparently the rTrainer is quite chuckable, according to some sources. Am rather eager to find out for myself.
     
  11. Niels_at_home

    Niels_at_home Registered

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    What is very hard to remember is you're dealing with a physics engine, and you're dealing with numbers someone put into this engine. Both need to be good before the car drives well, and you have to be lucky that you bought a monitor with little input lag, and that you're not using Vsync etc etc..

    Quite a few conditions to meet, and many simracers think they're good drivers, which is not *always* the case.. ;)

    In rF1 there are lots of cars that turn around after a certain amount of sideways angle, plenty of cars that turn around faster if you *apply opposite lock* .. and also quite a few cars that are quite drivable at bigger slip angles, provided you have the combination of latency free hardware and some skill.

    Because this debate has been around for years, I predict you will see rFactor 2 mods that are easy to handle above the limit, and mods where the modders managed to get a 'spin beyond xx slip angle' effect going. This debate will never be settled.

    My view is cars are fairly easy to drive a few seconds off the pace, and even at the limit you don't just spin out, you get a slide which costs time and you screw up the lap by 0.3 secs. Spins can and will happen but a decent driver should be able to drive at the limit for dozens of laps without a spin, but probably with a few laps screwed up with 'moments'.

    It will take time before modders get their head around rFactor 2's improvements and tires, but whatever you do, don't expect there to be agreement over how cars should handle! :D

    Edit: Often when you see spins, it has to do with hitting kerbs, or really overcooking it braking into a corner, or flooring it in 2nd gear. Those events often have enough 'kick' to turn a car around. But http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCTplLBOw9I is a good example of oversteer that turns into a sideways slide instead.
     
  12. feels3

    feels3 Member

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    Is it placebo effect or rear feels much more stable with new build? :)

    I have noticed that FR 3.5 and Megane have more grip on rear tires.
     
  13. Spacekid

    Spacekid Member

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    There was no changing in mods for the update. But it has maybe something to do with the code itself. Framerate is a lot better with the latest build. So, maybe it has something to do with it.
     
  14. breeze55a

    breeze55a Registered

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    I agree, I noticed the difference that was required to drive rf2 to get close to my times with rf1, It was noted in some of the reviews of rf2 also that this was not a sim like rf1 that would be solved by the holy setup. I like the way it feels and I don't have a problem with any of the cars breaking loose unless I provoke it. I like the fact that you have to really apply yourself to be consistent. I have come upon moments when you can just flat out drive the cars when you get your line right.
     
  15. O11

    O11 Registered

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    I felt that too. When it gets really iffy on the edge I seem to have more visual input. Like at the long left hander at Mills or the blind right handers at Sepang. I find the right line with much more confidence. Even on the exits I point the car in the right direction with more certainty.

    Could be because of the smoother running visuals.

    Whatever it is. I'm happy with it. Liking the F3.5 very much now. While I previously never liked open wheelers in general.
     
  16. vilivili

    vilivili Registered

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    this sounds nice. it's now many weeks ago when I last time tried rf2. going to test it soon
     
  17. Nibo

    Nibo Member

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    I personally feel like physics update rate was multiplied by 2 after update. Much smoother handling and now I can drive Historic formulas and do not feel that tires are detached from track. Its possible that something got optimized in a way physics integrator works.
     
  18. vilivili

    vilivili Registered

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    agreed, feels better now but I am still lookin forward..
     
  19. lokers

    lokers Registered

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    I'm glad that Niels has posted here, I was about to refer to that article about simulation tyres that he recently posted on the web. Before anybody tells ISI that their tyre model is faulty, consider that you can get wildly different car behaviours in rF1 in different mods, to a large extend because the tyre parameters entered are different. I remember that some modders made some fun mods that allowed big slip angles and practically no drop off in grip after the peak, and you can slide those around with a massive grin on your face. The NAP mod for GTR2 also managed to manipulate sliding behaviour by putting in a funny shaped slip vs. grip curve. To blame the tyre model itself, you'll need some pretty convincing data. Otherwise it is best to stick to describing the behaviour as was initially done in this thread and leave the speculating about the cause of it to the simulation experts. I am certainly in the category of user myself, and not expert ;)

    I personally find the cars much more driver friendly than in rF1. The F-Renault is difficult, but after a while I realised that I was spinning it by mashing the accelerator at uphill slow corners in Malaysia, when there's no weight at the back. With that in mind and a bit of changes to the setup, it feels quite a lot more predictable now, and even if I lose time but getting it sideways it's usually catchable. Oh and it has been discussed elsewhere that the FFB is far too strong for bumps in that car, probably because of tyre stiffnesses, which means that I actually run self-centering spring on my G25 with only 0.3 FFB multiplier for this car. This makes it driveable as I am not trying to stabilise the FFB all the time! The Meganes and 60s cars are quite slideable machines as well, but the Meganes needed much stiffer front dampers for me to be able to chuck it into medium speed corners without the back kicking out.

    Regarding setup, I just realised that the Formula-Renaults has a whole lot of different possible rear roll centre setups under the tuning screen. Has anyone else got any experience with that? I suspect some of these may be better for traction, probably the ones with the lower roll centre heights.

    One thing that I noticed with the rF2 cars so far is that setup has a very noticeable effect on car handling. That was not always the case with rF1. If I change the dampers or diff, I can tell within a couple of laps whether it has achieved its aim or not. Dunno how this came about but it's definitely a good thing.

    Much of the difficulty is, I think, to do with the lack of G-force feedback on the body and my lack of peripheral vision. Each Sim conveys these sensations differently. You will have to get used to the feeling in each sim and even mod. I had trouble going through the last long right hander in the Megane for a while (and the left hander before it too), until I started picking up early visuals for the car starting to drift and not relying solely on the FFB. After that, I had no more problems with that corner at the limit. It would have been certainly easier with the G-forces.
     
  20. lokers

    lokers Registered

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    A second post from me because this is a concern from me as opposed to a response.

    One thing that I do worry about with rF2 is my need to reduce the rear springs down to almost the minimum to achieve good rear traction. That generally puts the natural frequency of the rear end well below that of the front. I have with the Meganes about 80% of the front stiffness at the back, although the car has more weight at the back. This is contrary to what I think is the case with real race cars, where the rears have generally a comparable or 5% - 10% higher natural frequency than the front. In GPL we also always set up the cars such that the spring stiffness ratios front to rear matched the weight ratio. With RF1 and now RF2 this isn't the case, although RF1 was more extreme.

    I am wondering if there is an explanation for this?
     

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