rear end feels unnatural

Discussion in 'Technical Archives' started by vilivili, Jan 12, 2012.

  1. Kevin Brigden

    Kevin Brigden Registered

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    Exactly and given that each developer will have taken different approaches to modeling the physics in game AND then how these physics are transmitted through the steering wheel (of which there are many being used in a variety of applications) it's unfair to start slagging off the physics engine because you disagree with what does or does not feel right.

    In reality you feel nothing more than a heavily dampened feedback of the front tyre's adhesion or slip on the road through the wheel. Anything you feel with the rear end is entirely to do with your body sensing the yaw-moment being created by the car rotating about the vertical axis. In a simulator you're simply extrapolating what you have felt in the real car to what "should" be there in the simulator. However, given that each individual has entirely different perceptions of what is or what isn't happening in the real world (else we would all be super quick behind the wheel when we are in fact, not) you cannot realistically expect a single development team to be able to accurately attain the best results for any given car. In reality,for that to be even near the case would require a separate physics engine for each individual model and the sim would be enormous!

    To summarise:

    1. You have a single physics engine doing the work for (at the moment) half a dozen types of car each with entirely different characteristics
    2. Said physics engine must also remain open and usable enough for independent 3rd part mod groups to develop physics for
    3. There is no universal interaction between user and software around the world and therefore no two user's experiences are realistically comparable to any finite degree beyond basic conjecture
    4. Dismissing the physics engine as "wrong" is not just rude but also ignorant of the wider picture
    5. Arguing against those dismissing the physics engine does not make you a "fan boy"
    6. Openly dismissing a physics engine as "wrong" insinuates one's fanboy status lies elsewhere
    7. If you think you know it all, write to ISI with the answers instead of parading round a forum claiming you know it all

    I anticipate the inevitable sarcastic and trolling replies typical of such a forum however I am done with this thread.
     
  2. Mr.Ferret

    Mr.Ferret Registered

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    Its the polar opposite in feel to me than rF1 was. rf1 felt like driving on ice to me i never liked it or gelled yet loved live for speed and iracing, physics in rf2 are fantastic out of the box i was able to feel the car moving around and the subtle changes in tyre temp and track grip.
     
  3. glacierre

    glacierre Registered

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    First time I drove a real kart I did not crash until I started pushing. Making a cautious lap was easy.

    I got a copy of nkpro and drove my first laps ever on it. No tuning. With the stock car I drove without problems around. Then I took a f2000, spun a few times due to locking wheels, by the second lap I could stay on track all the time.

    Meanwhile, in rf2, I don't know who was able to make a full clean lap with any of the cars right after downloading. Me not, for sure, and I am not talking about a fast lap, just a clean one. If that is normal for some people, so be it.

    Either my wheel is the worst piece of crap ever built or the placebo effect makes wonders. Out of the box feeling of subtle changes in tyre temp...
     
  4. Crankee Stroka

    Crankee Stroka Registered

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    Rear end feels unnatural...

    I have a completely open mind on this issue until ISI says its done. Then and only then will I form an opinion.
    Until that time I will continue to learn how best to use it in it's evolving state and experiment.
    Did the recent server update help for any of you that have issues?
    One tip though..
    If you're not happy and are not willing to give ISI grace on this issue..
    try a female one *coughs.. erm driver I mean.. :p:rolleyes::cool:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 15, 2012
  5. brr

    brr Registered

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    But since the rear is connected to the front by the somewhat rigid car body, things happening in the rear affect the front and hence indirectly may be felt in the steering.
     
  6. emilblixt

    emilblixt Registered

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    WE ARE PROVIDING CONSTRUCTIVE CRITISISM. ITS CALLED FEEDBACK. ITS A GOOD THING. WE LIKE RFACTOR
    AND WE WANT IT TO IMPROVE.

    If you know other ways to achieve this, please share with the rest of us.
     
  7. emilblixt

    emilblixt Registered

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    If that were true we would need different physics for each event in real life as well. Physic only work in one way, albeit complex, FFB could be tweaked for each model though.
     
  8. Heracross

    Heracross Registered

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    Really? I can save most cars in this from some pretty wild slides unless I myself just make a big error. In rF1 I always found this much more difficult. I'm not dismissing your opinion, but I'm surprised that the one I formed on my own is so completely opposite. I have driven rF1 since the beta.
     
  9. MN-Power

    MN-Power Registered

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    I think this rearend behaviour can definitely be solved. It's perfectly fine before you reach the limit, but over it the rear can only be held with a lot of effort. Doing the old brake + a little accellerator (with counter steering) can help, but not even all the time.

    I had a real hard time keeping the 60's GP under control on both SPA and Monaco. It's been a while since it took me several restarts to get one finished lap in a sim. And I had that with all cars. But I think there's just some gremlins in there that need to be exterminated, because the FFB is showng real potential and the front of the car seems to be ok. It's hard to judge if the gremlins are in the code or in the car physics, but because all cars have difficult rear ends(even the Megane can bite you very badly) I think it's the engine(or a wrongly used parameter used in all cars).

    If I can take a stab it almost fels like the rotational inertia from the body is too strong. Once it starts rotating the tires don't have enough grip to dampen the rotation. rF1 also was a bit difficult once you were in a slide, but most of the time it was (a lot) more managable(depending on the mod ofcourse) than rF2 IMHO.

    But all in all I'm confident this will be solved.
     
  10. Bigfish

    Bigfish Registered

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    I'm sorry but the point of being OVER THE LIMIT, is that you have pushed the car, tires, every part the limit of control, and therefore loss of control is fairly certain.. And it is VERY hard to gain control in any situation once you pass that point..

    The inertial rotation from the body is fine, Once a car enters a slide, you dramatically lose grip, especially at the speeds your travelling in the sim, even locking the breaks drops the grip on a tire around 30%.. drop that on both the rears.. and the inertia of the nearly any car is more then enough to put the car right round..

    everybody comparing it to RBR, gravel and dirt, act very differently from tarmac, when you put a car into a slide on dirt, or gravel it digs in, still has a little less grip but not much less... making it really easy to hold slides on dirt or gravel, even i can easily hold my car in real life sideways on dirt..

    megane has a short wheel base, meaning it has snap oversteer... ridiculously hard to catch :/ the renualt has a longer wheel base, but its light, and relies on downforce, and is very hard to catch as a pointed out in my previous post.
    Both these cars should be very hard to catch and they are which is good!!

    Jump into dev mode and try out the rtrainer, it is a bit more like a go kart, and runs street tires.. And that you can throw sideways and easily catch and it responds nicely just like it should..



    Edit: The 60's f1 cars, were ridiculous hard to drive, that had a large amount of power, no weight and no downforce and were running on tires so hard, you could use them for 2 race events.. thats practice, quali, race X 2
    I actually find the 60's F1 cars really easy to hold sideways, although very hard to drive quick in..
     
  11. fedexpress

    fedexpress Registered

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    + 1

    I find it impossible to correct once my megane slides :p

    Yes I play iracing with v8 and even that beast i can correct :p
     
  12. MN-Power

    MN-Power Registered

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    Maybe I should clarify. I meant the behaviour in fast corners. Where you can normally accelerate and when you feel you're losing the rear you can react. If you then countersteer the car should re-settle at least a little because the rears whilst having lost grip provide more resitance than the front that is pointing in the direction the car is sliding. I'm a fairly flowing driver(I hate having to throw a car around) so when I say over the limit I do not mean I did something rash/crude and the car bit me. It happens from time to time, but then I know I'm to blame. Even in replays you can see the front wheel pointing in the correct direction, but sometimes the car keeps rotating like the front wheels are almost pointing straight ahead.


    The Megane's wheelbase is short, but not MINI short. It's wheelbase(2625 mm) is longer than a BMW E30 M3(2568 mm) and not that much shorter than a E36 M3 or even E46 M3(2,700 and 2,731 respectively).

    But I think it's in the setups. I tried the Megane and turned the front stabilizer to max(as the rear was already detached(or even non-existant) by default) and the rear rebound damper to full. That way it is predictable and not even very understeered. It also helps to stabilize the rear under braking. I at first stiffend the front bump damper too, but the rears were enough.

    And similar treatment helps with the 60's F1 too. And of course that's a car you need a calender to plan braking and steering but even when you have just enough throttle to keep your speed the car bites hard and out of nowhere with the default setup. If memory servers correct I had an easier time jumping into GPL. :) Without setup changes I can't even do 90% laps confidently let alone 95-99(100 is when you expect to lose it somewhere in a lap ;))
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 15, 2012
  13. jubuttib

    jubuttib Registered

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    And I on the other hand like drifting the Megane, just wished it had more steering lock for some huge ones. Different strokes. =)
     
  14. autodieb

    autodieb Registered

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    Yes it would be nice if you could just extract the meganes into DevMode and try out exactly that.
    I tried a few things; Engine from a Turbocharged rf1 car, more lock... But this rear engine, rear drive isn't fun to drive on Joesville.
     
  15. liebestod

    liebestod Registered

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    I thought that the rear end was weird at first but I just buckled down and kept practicing. I'll say that there is a lot of feedback, and you can definitely feel the limit and recover when you go over once you get tuned in right. It's a little more subtle than in nkPro, but it is completely appropriate for the cars currently in the game.
     
  16. Bigfish

    Bigfish Registered

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    because the rears whilst having lost grip provide more resitance than the front that is pointing in the direction the car is sliding

    ^ that may be true in most cars, but not in open wheelers and cars with downforce, and low weight.. once the car is going side ways past a certain amount, which u can catch in rf2 in high speed corners, you hit a point where there is not enough weight over the rears, due to losing downforce that there isn't enough resistance to hold bring the rear in check when you counter steer.. Maybe its a little unpredictably right now but it still seems to be correct 99% of the time.. f1 - f2 - f3, even prototypes lmp1 and 2 are insanely hard to catch at speeds, and not much easier at low speed..
    You don't see f1 drivers correcting there steering and counter steering through fast corners, they are smooth and precise, and when they have to counter steer 99% of the times you see a car in a wall

    You don't see GT drivers correct either

    And iracing v8 supercar? that car is actually driftable in real life, its setup is very different from a gt car, alot more like a street car, softer, also has a locked dif, live rear axle, making it very very different from all the cars in rf2 right now..
     
  17. zoob

    zoob Registered

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    I have no problems controlling rear end and correcting slides. Feedback is great. Make sure your wheel settings are correct, FPS is high enough and there is no input lag.

     
  18. vilivili

    vilivili Registered

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    from where is this information coming?
     
  19. brabham67

    brabham67 Registered

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    Just a thought. Have you tried turning down the steering lock on the Megane? By default for my wheel setup(G27, 900 degrees of rotation) it runs at 25.5 degrees. By reducing the lock to 21.5 degrees I can control the rear, and recover from slides much easier. In fact for me it transformed that car. I have way more confidence going into a corner now because it doesn't feel as twitchy as it did before.
     
  20. Bigfish

    Bigfish Registered

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    Idk the tire coder at iracing, quoted it from some textbook.. cant remember exactly when.. but that seems fairly accurate from what i've seen and felt.. watching and driving cars..
     

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