realistic clutch

Discussion in 'Wish Lists' started by otirc, Dec 10, 2012.

  1. gorgias1976

    gorgias1976 Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2012
    Messages:
    927
    Likes Received:
    82
    I agree with you. Online servers should have the option to set clutch to "real". Otherwise it's a big disadvantage for those who like driving "as real as posible".
     
  2. Redpxl

    Redpxl Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2012
    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    21
    Or do like iRacing, time penalty for using auto clutch, auto blip, that way people using proper shifting method are not penalized like it is now, but have an advantage if done properly. Having only a server option will end up like "auto clutch" is now, almost on on every server. Leagues are already compose of people using clutch and other without it, how would you deal with that if you force "real clutch" on your server?
     
  3. Dave Millard

    Dave Millard Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    11
    That was what I liked about iRacing.. a clutch and gearbox that was more realistic. What people need are options, when I join someones server I realize that most of the time I am racing with a handicap. This doesn't bother me because no one forced me to join the server. If I host a server I should be able to make it as realistic as possible, if my server only allows cockpit view, and forces you to shift like a real car then if you join it and don't have a clutch or 3 monitor setup, or any other piece of hardware that I do... you joined of your own free will. Options options options....
     
  4. gorgias1976

    gorgias1976 Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2012
    Messages:
    927
    Likes Received:
    82
    You're correct. A determined lag between shifts could be the answer.
     
  5. Dave Millard

    Dave Millard Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    11
    Negative...that is not realistic.
     
  6. Paul_Ceglia

    Paul_Ceglia Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2012
    Messages:
    676
    Likes Received:
    13

    for sure! You would have to drive to car which would be great, I drive the 60's cars all the time and only use the clutch to take off the rest of the time im left foot braking. Im so used to it at this point that using the clutch would slow me down considerably but to have a real clutch setting to toy with would be nice
     
  7. Guy Moulton

    Guy Moulton Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,310
    Likes Received:
    16
    I have been poking around in the car files for rF2 and each mod has settings for pre-set penalties for using assists. From the .HDV file:

    [AIDPENALTIES]
    TC=(0.00,0.003,0.004) // Weight penalties for using different
    ABS=(0.000,0.000,0.000) // levels of aids. First value is typically
    Stability=(0.000,0.004,0.005) // with the aid off so it should be 0.0.
    Autoshift=(0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00) // Penalties should only be applied to
    Steering=(0.000,0.003,0.004,0.004) // aids that the vehicle would not be
    Braking=(0.00,0.00,0.00) // allowed to run with. Penalties should
    Invulnerable=(0.00,0.00) // typically only be used if the aid improves
    Opposite=(0.00,0.00) // laptimes for a decent driver.
    SpinRecovery=(0.00,0.00) // Values are fractions of the total vehicle
    AutoPit=(0.00,0.00) // mass, and are modeled as extra weight in
    AutoLift=(0.00,0.00) // the fuel tank. Do not use negative values.
    AutoBlip=(0.00,0.00)

    Why isn't autoclutch in there? Would it be difficult to add?

    There is this:

    [DRIVELINE]
    ClutchInertia=0.0190
    ClutchTorque=650.0
    ClutchWear=0.0
    ClutchFriction=7.0
    ClutchEngageRate=1.2 // how quickly clutch is engaged with auto-clutch driving aid

    It would be possible to mod a mod especially for a server to use make using the clutch and advantage. Add a really big clutchengagerate value so that using autoclutch is slower. But- the problem remains that you can have autoclutch off but just not use the clutch during the race and it's just the same.
    AIClutchEngageRate=2.2
     
  8. gorgias1976

    gorgias1976 Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2012
    Messages:
    927
    Likes Received:
    82
    What I personally find not realistic is the difference between:

    Driving a car which is supposed to have a clutch. There is a time delay between right foot changing from throttle to brake, having to apply heel and toe and at the same time while using left foot for clutch and right hand off the steering wheel at the gear lever.

    Driving the same car using flappy paddles. Having no delay between throttle and brake as the left foot does the braking. Gears being almost inmediatly shifted having at the same time both hands in the wheel for better control.

    If the car at rfactor2 is defined to have a clutch, H shifting and the need to apply heel and toe.... the use of autoclutch and flappy paddles should have a time lag penalty to compensate that advantage in time reaction and car control.
     
  9. woochoo

    woochoo Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,249
    Likes Received:
    2,560
    I learned to heel-toe with a keyboard when checking track dev work.
    It's no harder than with pedals (except for the digital input vs analog pedals, but you can set decent rates)

    Clutch=shift, downshift=left alt.
    hold Z and ripple a shift+alt+a combo :)
    It's not even remotely hard once you muscle-memorise the move, same as with your feet.
    Could make a macro too i guess.

    Keyboard racers are no excuse for not having proper (or even decent) clutch/gearbox simulation, I say.
    So, the same should be true for binding a wheel button for clutch and using paddles, for those without clutch pedals and stick shifters (which I've also done in the past).

    I expect anyone who doesn't know how heel-toe will learn how to do it. And then they'll realise how fun it is, and do it in real life too. :eek: It's baffling that rF2 doesn't have any sort of clutch requirement. Same with rF1. Even a simple clutch status/rev/wheel speed check. Baffled. :confused:
     
  10. gorgias1976

    gorgias1976 Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2012
    Messages:
    927
    Likes Received:
    82
    I undestand that some people don't have, don't like or preffer not to use clutch/heel and toe/H shifting (when the car is configured to do so).... I don't have a problem with that as long as it won't represent and advantage as it actually does now.
     
  11. Luc1gnol0

    Luc1gnol0 Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    0
  12. Guy Moulton

    Guy Moulton Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,310
    Likes Received:
    16
    At Change.org I created a petition for ISI to:

    This is a racing sim and as such should be as realistic as possible. This is doubly true as ISI is making rFactor 2 into an historical sim as much as a modern one. We are petitioning to ISI to include a third clutch option- Auto, Manual and Real. Keep Auto and Manual as they are presently. Real enforces the need to engage the clutch or match revs with every shift. We are petitioning for bad shifts are penalized by not allowing the car to shift, grinding (and thus damaging) the gears or locking up/accelerating the rear wheels. We are petitioning for the clutch option of Real to be as realistic as possible and for it to be an option for a dedicated server.

    Sign the petition here
     
  13. Dave Millard

    Dave Millard Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    11
    The problem with that is there is no way to implement a delay that will not adversely affect me (who is using 3 pedals and an H using heel toe). To pick an arbitrary number for the "delay" is not realistic. In real life if you shift with no clutch there is no delay as long as the revs are matched, and the gears line up. And when I heel toe I am fast and accurate. I can do this just as fast in my 77 Vette as I can in a sim.
     
  14. Redpxl

    Redpxl Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2012
    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    21
    iRacing only apply a delay if you choose auto clutch, it have nothing to do with you using the clutch or not. You can use other techniques and you wont be penalized as long as your did not select auto clutch or auto blip. So using a proper method for gear change (clutch or not) can give you an advantage if done well.

    Of course it wouldn't work with current rFactor2 gearbox
     
  15. Barf Factor

    Barf Factor Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2012
    Messages:
    397
    Likes Received:
    2
    I would like to sign the petition but I have never heard of change.org - Is it run by honorable people?
     
  16. Butch Nackley

    Butch Nackley Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    292
    Likes Received:
    12
    Thanks.
    Something like that may be able to be in the game. Rise of Flight has exactly what I am taking about in its controls menu. You can set the points at which response begins and ends, as well as setting the curves however you want by adding points to the curve line wherever you like and as many of them as you need.
    With something like this, we could set the clutch curve to react exactly like a real cars clutch.
     
  17. osella

    osella Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2012
    Messages:
    864
    Likes Received:
    26
    Signed petition ;)
     
  18. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    1,668
    Likes Received:
    48
    I think that big values are faster and small values are slower, that is how at least I remember setting that last time.
     
  19. Diablo

    Diablo Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    404
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, I am all for the realistic clutch and damaging your gearbox, if you mess up your shifts. I also want realistic gearboxes, i.e. if the original seq. gearbox has no autolift and no autoblip and i want to shift clutchless, I would need to rev match. But it should also be possible to upshift without clutching and lifting, if the real car has a seq gearbox with autolift, etc.

    I am not entirely sold on the forced "real" clutch option on a server. In theory, totally yes. In practice though, there are still people that don´t have a clutch pedal, so I wouldn´t want to exclude them.

    I know there is a penalty system in place already, so using autoclutch makes you slower, ideally just as slow as the driver that uses the manual clutch. But from my experience this penalty system is defeated by the unrealistic (non-existent) damage model for the gearbox and by rFactor2 allowing to shift without clutch even if autoclutch is off.

    So, implement real clutch and gearbox behaviour and leave the penalty system as it is. It should be up to the content providers to set resonable values, which don´t put the poor drivers not having a clutch pedal at a disadvantage.


    Cheers,
    Marcus
     
  20. Guy Moulton

    Guy Moulton Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,310
    Likes Received:
    16
    The whole point is for those without a clutch (or those who don't want to use it) to stick with servers that use the old system, but for there to be a choice for those who want the real clutch option. Yes, it is excluding those with no clutch but it's not like they don't have other servers to choose from. If they really want in.... get a wheel with a clutch. We did.
     

Share This Page