Race Rejoins

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Nazirull Safry Paijo, Sep 7, 2015.

  1. Nazirull Safry Paijo

    Nazirull Safry Paijo Registered

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    Hi guys.

    I havent tried the feature to the full extent on this build, except one time last night.

    - I wrecked the car totally and without pressing escape, I closed rf2 with ctrl+alt+del.
    - rejoined succesful (with fresh car, which was set in the server)
    - got a 31 laps penalty which went down to 11 laps in a few laps (after overtaking DNF guys in the pits)

    I hope others will share their take with this feature as it is very very useful especially for endurance races. Thanks!
     
  2. Nazirull Safry Paijo

    Nazirull Safry Paijo Registered

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    Also if racers can choose how to rejoin

    - with a fresh car - Where damage repair is unrealisticly too long. so take lap down penalties instead.
    - with the same state car - so in situation of accident in a big tracks where crawling to the pit is not an option
     
  3. Jimmi Allison

    Jimmi Allison Administrator Staff Member

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    It totally depends on what your league rules say.
    At VEC we have it set to Race rejoin=2 so you will get the same car just like you left it.
    The lap penalty you are talking about must be a bug, VEC is using build 946 and there is no lap penalty whatsoever.
    If someone esc out or crashes out and can't make it to the pits because their car is a total wreck - it wouldn't help to pull the plug.

    So if 998 is giving a lap penalty, I wouldn't base a rule set on this, as I said - it is probably a bug.
     
  4. Nazirull Safry Paijo

    Nazirull Safry Paijo Registered

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    Thanks for sharing the info on how VEC does it, Jimmi.

    May i know how the guys at VEC rejoin races? Press ESC and exit the game thru UI or CTRL+ALT+DEL and end rfactor2 process?

    Hope ISI can fix that lap penalty bug.
     
  5. Jimmi Allison

    Jimmi Allison Administrator Staff Member

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    Well our teams only rejoin if they get disconnected from our server.
    You could compare this with pulling the LAN cable.
     
  6. Euskotracks

    Euskotracks Registered

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    The problem of actual rejoin criteria (IMO) is that people will get skilled at pulling the cable before a major crash. In my case the slot that makes the "click" is broken so it is very easy to take it out very fast without damaging anything.

    I don't know why a disconnection is more allowable than a hardware failure or a big unavoidable crash where engine could break if the game loses focus and suddenly jumps to desktop or to a stupid program trying to update.

    Preparing a race for a long time (especially for endurance races) and not being able to finish is something that nobody likes.
    In real life **** happens and is impossible to put a remedy.
    However in sim racing there is a solution for this: Race rejoin.

    Some will say that this is unrealistic but so it is to survive without a flaw the hundreds of high speed crashes we've all had during our simracing career. I haven't seen either any hardware to better simulate this aspect.

    I personally think that simulation is good because it can remove many of the bad things of real sim racing (expensive, dangerous) while providing (hardware apart) the same machine to all the contendants.

    In the league I manage I set rejoins so that people get a new car. I miss, however the possibility to introduce a time penalty before the driver can effectively press the race button. This way regardless of the issue causing the disconnection, the penalty would be the same. It would also make it pointless to reenter the server as fast as possible.

    I would also accept rejoining after pressing Esc. It is simply stupid to forbid it since the Internet cable can be pulled out being unable to distinguish between a real or a faked disconnection.

    Enviado desde mi GT-I9505 mediante Tapatalk
     
  7. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    I think 2 is the way to go. I know it's easy to unplug the cable but it's still harder than hitting esc. Admins could also review the replay. It would be a little obvious if someone makes a mistake and then conveniently has a disco. IMO, pulling the plug before hitting a wall is cheating. If you made Esc legal then your basically saying you allow cheating.
     
  8. Damian Baldi

    Damian Baldi Registered

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    I see two different things here.

    For one side, I think if you crash and destroy your car, that should be the end of your race, no rejoin available. It's cruel, but if you are in an endurance championship, I think it's part of the game. Other way people make a 24hs race pure sprint races.

    On the other side, when you crash and you get the car repaired, you never get the same final speed than before the crash. That's for me the reason to get a fresh car. If this wouldn't exist, I don't see a reason to get a fresh car.

    Endurance races should be different than sprints, endurance should include speed, strategy and take some risks or not. If you know that the car couldn't be repaired, you wouldn't take different risks. Then obviously exist bad luck, like crashing a car crossed in middle of the track and things like that, but...that's part of the racing.
     
  9. Euskotracks

    Euskotracks Registered

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    Why is allowing ESC cheating if I set a considerable time penalty for any rejoin? I guess that there is no international simracing federation that has set some kind of universal rules...

    I thought this was for having fun! Giving a second opportunity so that people can rejoin after a wreck is fantastic IMO. Someone can spoil your race and for me that is much more unfair than getting a Internet failure.

    Just because in real racing is impossible to recover a car magically should we limit everything accordingly when in simracing we don't have such restrictions? IMO no.

    For several years simracing.org has allowed pressing ESC when using the rejoin plugin developed by Achim. They allow cheaters I guess...

    According to your criteria why is a regular rejoin not cheating when a car immediately goes from a point of the track to the garage? Is that realistic?
    Shouldn't be better if the AI at 80% strength took the car until the driver rejoined? At least it would be more realistic from a racing point of view.

    Finally, when the car rolls over, it magically recovers to normal position after some seconds. Hence according to your criteria ISI is allowing cheating.

    So please before accusing anybody of allowing cheating think that there are other POV than yours.

    Enviado desde mi GT-I9505 mediante Tapatalk
     
  10. Jimmi Allison

    Jimmi Allison Administrator Staff Member

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    It's a matter of choice.
    VEC don't allow it and we simply answered questions. Yes pulling a plug before crashing is by our definition cheating. Why do we allow rejoin, because sometimes your internet drops you. Not the same thing as you crashing into a wall.
    Disconnects is not the same as crashing hard into the wall is it? Crashing into a wall - that could be something with either your driving or others driving - which in real life happens. A disconnect (like seen in rf1) is not something that can happen in real life.

    Why on earth should an so take over a disconnect - That will demand so much more from leagues that has to make sure all the ai paths on each track is good and "my point of view" is that not all track makers make as much of an effort as others. And no I'm not accusing anyone but some have more talent than others.

    But instead of arguing with our point of view and telling us we should see others point of view.. Why don't you just so the same ;)
    And perhaps answer the initial question instead of arguing with us about point of views.
     
  11. DurgeDriven

    DurgeDriven Banned

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    Like Formula I think it needs split races. :)

    Rather then 2-3 hour race do 4 of 30- 45 minutes and combine points.

    Less chance of disco and anyone does gets a fresh crack at it. :)
     
  12. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    The problem is that endurance over a 12 hour race you could be 3 laps down and if the race suddenly ended then it would bunch the pack up and take away the advantage some teams had with multi lap gaps. Everyone hates the way NASCAR does this with flags. Same goes for sim racing. Luckily these days the internet providers are more stable, computers are more stable and rF2 is more stable (and includes a rejoin feature). So hacky workarounds aren't really needed anymore.
     
  13. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    Escaping before hitting a wall even with a penalty is still kind of shady if you ask me. But there are a lot of things that are unrealistic. I am not a sim purist either. I am willing to compromise realism in some aspects (ex: FFB, head physics, sounds). But giving people an eject button isn't one of them.

    But, I am all for options. I would love to see an option to rejoin after an esc and more important (to me), the ability to add a time penalty with or without an esc. But these suggestions have already been made to ISI and I'm sure we will see both of them one of these days.
     
  14. Euskotracks

    Euskotracks Registered

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    If after a disconnection the AI would pick the car until the driver rejoined, pulling the cable to avoid smashing the car against the wall would be useless since the AI would crash as well.

    It is not so important if the AI path is perfect. The idea is to avoid someone losing so much time after a disconnection.

    Esc would always have a severe time penalty and should only be used to get a new car.

    It is curious that none of you commented the fact that roll over recovery barely implies a small loss of time while in reality it would mean the end of the race. For me it is similar to wrecking the car but with very different consequences ingame.

    However I haven't seen anybody criticizing this feature in this forum where there are some purists that wouldn't drive fantasy tracks or reverse layouts of real ones because they are not real!!!!

    I know it is slightly offtopic but, as race rejoin, it is a feature to help the player after a problem that otherwise would mean the end of the race.

    Enviado desde mi SM-G130HN mediante Tapatalk
     
  15. Damian Baldi

    Damian Baldi Registered

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    As Jimmi said, it depends of the philosophy of the league. For me Endurance racing, is to bring the car to the finish line. The most important thing is the car that 2, 3 or four drivers drives to the finish line. If the car was changed in middle of the race, is not the same, at least for me.

    RF2 rejoins are great, but they should be used for his original purpose, to rejoin a race if you get a disconnection. If you crash the car for whatever reason, the pit crew should repair it at the pits, and the reparation should be complete. You should pay that reparation with pit time.

    If you crash heavily and the car lost both front wheels, or the engine is dead, it would be nice to have the option to call the truck as in N2003. This way, you repair the car at pits as it should be, and call the track adds you an extra lap.
     
  16. Nazirull Safry Paijo

    Nazirull Safry Paijo Registered

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    Thanks all for the replies.
    For me its a great tool to maintain participation and number in those who can cross the finish line. SInce the participation in my region is low, and with the ambition of a long endurance race, I would like to have some guidelines in how to exit the race and rejoining it and keep on racing.

    So far its

    - ctrl alt del and end process
    - unplugging the network cable (or the like)

    Ive tried ESC. I can rejoin the game but I cant resume racing. And im listed as AI
     
  17. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    This is an interesting concept. As long as the car gets some sort of tag to let others know it is under AI control so they know to watch out when near it. But it would need some sort of timeout if the original driver doesn't come back so you don't have a messy AI on the track for 20 laps.
     
  18. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    Correct... If you ESC your car gets flagged as DNF and when you rejoin this status is restored and the race button will be greyed out. There was a bug in older builds where the finish status wasn't getting restored on a rejoin so the game didn't know you were DNFed and would let you hit the race button.
     
  19. Nazirull Safry Paijo

    Nazirull Safry Paijo Registered

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    Yes...or even ghost the AI car until the DCed driver rejoined.
     
  20. Euskotracks

    Euskotracks Registered

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    Yes, a non collidable (if preferred) ghost car that could be easily distinguished by other drivers would be the safest way to do it.

    The moment of rejoin would be like a driver change where the entering driver would decide when to safely take control.

    The AI strength to be used should be adjustable. Logically a low setting should be used which would make the disconnected driver lose some seconds. This is a necessary inconvenience to avoid giving advantage.

    For sure this is not urgent and unless is really straight forward to code, I would rather prefer that ISI focuses in more important issues.

    Enviado desde mi SM-G130HN mediante Tapatalk
     

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