Question about clutch

Galaga

Galaga

Banned
Will clutch be implemented in 60s F1 cars like it is in Howston?
I hear than there is a weight penalty in Howstons if auto clutch is used. True? If so, how much weight is added? Seems odd. Wouldn't it make more sense to just slow shifting instead?
Is shifting possible without clutch with rev matching?
 
Good question. Auto-shift is such an advantage with the Howstons, that the standard weight penalty for using auto-clutch really can't make up for it. It's fantastic that using the clutch with these requires a new sort of skill and a technique you have to develop! Last night I was on th F3 Fantatics server and learning to drive that Howston G6 was a lot of fun. I had the autoclutch on at first (forgot I had it on) then turned it off for the rest of the session and enjoyed the struggle :D

I'd love to see this same driveline in the 60's WCR cars too. I have a feeling that the WCR 60's cars will be updated with new driveline and chassis flex when they are finished.
 
Yeah, you really have to clean up your upshifts with the howston, made me clean up my technique more, i dont use a clutch downshifting, my feet are too big, lol
 
Galaga said:
Will clutch be implemented in 60s F1 cars like it is in Howston?
I hear than there is a weight penalty in Howstons if auto clutch is used. True? If so, how much weight is added? Seems odd. Wouldn't it make more sense to just slow shifting instead?
Is shifting possible without clutch with rev matching?
Click to expand...



Yes you can upshift and downshift without using the clutch. I use the clutch to upshift and don't miss shifts anymore. I short calibrated my clutch to about 50% to make it easier. I'm sure with enough practice you could upshift without clutch without problems.
 
Galaga said:
Will clutch be implemented in 60s F1 cars like it is in Howston?
I hear than there is a weight penalty in Howstons if auto clutch is used. True? If so, how much weight is added? Seems odd. Wouldn't it make more sense to just slow shifting instead?
Is shifting possible without clutch with rev matching?
Click to expand...

you don't need to rev match anything in rf2. You can upshift and downshift with impunity (within reason of course, passing from 4th to 1st will obviously lock up the rear wheels). there is no need to use the clutch expect when starting from a full stop.
 
elbo said:
you don't need to rev match anything in rf2. You can upshift and downshift with impunity (within reason of course, passing from 4th to 1st will obviously lock up the rear wheels). there is no need to use the clutch expect when starting from a full stop.
Click to expand...

Ya it's overly forgiving I think you're right. You definitely need to blip on downshifts in RFactor though, especially while braking and really on the limit or you can get yourself sideways and into a spin, but I agree, it's not important ENOUGH. It's more sensitive/vital/unforgiving in real life than it is in RFactor at the moment.

But then again, ISI did say that they are working on transmission/drivetrain physics and they will introduce it into the Howston soon, and I'm assuming all other cars from that point on. :)
 
elbo said:
you don't need to rev match anything in rf2. You can upshift and downshift with impunity (within reason of course, passing from 4th to 1st will obviously lock up the rear wheels). there is no need to use the clutch expect when starting from a full stop.
Click to expand...

I'm guessing you have not tried the Howstons which this thread is about.
 
nascar2112 said:
Yeah, if you have auto blip off, you have to rev match when downshifting, or your gonna go sideways bigtime
Click to expand...

I have no aids on and autoblip off, I can downshift without rev matching, I agree that if you down shift and the rear wheels are spinning too fast for the gear you are going into you will loose the rear end as the rear wheels hop, but that to me does not equate to a proper clutch simulation.

Yes I have tried the Howston...do this, take the car up to third gear then slow down to well below what you should be in for third gear, downshift to second gear, without touching the clutch or blipping the gas. What happens? Nothing. You carry on in second gear and go on your merry way...
 
thanks galaga you started this thread
I have a problem with upshifting in Howston. occasionally, when I upshift and push the throttle a bit faster, the revs rocket up and the engine stops to pull the car, just like missed shift or clutch slipping. But my wheel shows proper gear and I do not need to shift again, only release and push the throttle slowly again and the engine starts pull the car properly and the revs go up normally. So I do not think it is a missed shift.
Till now I have not used the clutch pedal because no need, in old F1 I only lifted up on upshifts, but not for upshifting itself, only to maintain the car relaxed. But to solve the problem described I tried to add using the clutch pedal. It helps a bit, but not fully, the problem still persists with lower frequency.
I discussed it with galaga, but we were unable to find the solution.
So what is it? what I do wrong?
downshifting not any problem, I use blips, yes you can live without them, but I think it is not worth higher risk of locking the wheels and with blips you can enter the corner with higher revs. and in some cases when you need to downshift after the corner entry...
 
The only way i can overcome the clutch slipping is to make sure im on the clutch a tiny bit longer between gears
 
I like the new clutch slippage and it's cool as long as everyone else is on the same page and everyone is using manual clutch. Around Mid-Ohio I'm over 1 sec/lap faster with autoclutch. But I don't understand something.

The autoclutch should kick in when I shift, then once done shifting, autoclutch is disengaged and does nothing else until I shift again. Right?

So if I am not using autoclutch, I manually use my clutch to engage the next gear and successfully get into gear, lift off the clutch and squeeze on the throttle- if I have autoclutch OR manual clutch selected, the car should behave exactly the same. At that point the autoclutch is on vacation until I shift again. So why is it that with manual clutch, after I successfully shift, do I get clutch slippage if I give it too much throttle? It makes no sense. There's either a bug with this new driveline (which is fine if everyone is affected by the same bug) or a bug with autoclutch.

In a real car, many bad things can happen if you give it too much gas. What the Howstons does makes no sense. This has nothing to do with how we are using the clutch pedal, there is a bug with the car or autoshift in the game. I hope the driveline is either fixed soon (I suppose if the real car's clutch was insufficient for the output of the engine you could slip the clutch by giving it too much gas- but then autoclutch should do the exact same thing) or autoclutch is fixed soon.
 
The slippage is simulating a bad shift on your part or something like that from what I understand based off ISI's release notes. Also says it's just a placeholder effect until the new transmission/drivetrain physics come into play.
 
the clutch slipping on the howston is an easy trick: BaulkTorque=400 if BaulkTorque is significantly lower than ClutchTorque and engine´s torque, slipping will happen. It was done on the DRM mod for rF1 the same way. It´s a nice trick to make people upshift more carefully, but on the downside you don´t have to revmatch on downshifts (at least when the tires are grippy enough and create more grip force than the baulk torque)
 
"Back in the day" race car transmissions were unsynchronized and manually shifted ususally with an h shifter. To the best of my ability to research (without spending money) these transmissions were double de-cluthched on downshifts and upshifts were performed with only a throttle blip to match revs and without disengaging the clutch. (Reportedly another upshift technique was to merely tap the clutch pedal to just slip it a little bit to match revs on the upshift?) Such race transmissions are now called dog boxes or crash boxes and are built with sturdier teeth more widely spaced. Dog boxes are stronger than the synchronized transmission in your daily driver. A web page explaining dog boxez is http://automotivethinker.com/transmission/dog-engaged-transmissions-aka-the-crash-box-and-dog-box/. I found a discussion on shifting on the Nostalgia Forum at Autosport where the consenous was the most common shifting technique in F1 was what I have repeated above (at least before the advent of paddleshifting automatics and LFB) It was also reported that Gahram Hill did not skip gears when downshifting, even at Monaco! Also of note I believe Nascar still uses such transmissions.
I would like an option for rF2 to model a dog box.
Sam
 
samuelw said:
"Back in the day" race car transmissions were unsynchronized and manually shifted ususally with an h shifter. To the best of my ability to research (without spending money) these transmissions were double de-cluthched on downshifts and upshifts were performed with only a throttle blip to match revs and without disengaging the clutch. (Reportedly another upshift technique was to merely tap the clutch pedal to just slip it a little bit to match revs on the upshift?) Such race transmissions are now called dog boxes or crash boxes and are built with sturdier teeth more widely spaced. Dog boxes are stronger than the synchronized transmission in your daily driver. A web page explaining dog boxez is http://automotivethinker.com/transmission/dog-engaged-transmissions-aka-the-crash-box-and-dog-box/. I found a discussion on shifting on the Nostalgia Forum at Autosport where the consenous was the most common shifting technique in F1 was what I have repeated above (at least before the advent of paddleshifting automatics and LFB) It was also reported that Gahram Hill did not skip gears when downshifting, even at Monaco! Also of note I believe Nascar still uses such transmissions.
I would like an option for rF2 to model a dog box.
Sam
Click to expand...

Double clutching is when you press clutch, put shifter in netural, let out clutch, do your throttle blip, press clutch, go from netural to gear, let clutch out. Most cars, even from the 60s and 70s didnt need that, it was more a 30s and 40s thing.

I think most racecars now-a-days have some sort of variation of a dog box still. Most can be shifted without the clutch, especially on upshifts, trickier on downshifts with the timing and preciseness of the blips though, but possible too.
 
Spinelli said:
I think most racecars now-a-days have some sort of variation of a dog box still. Most can be shifted without the clutch, especially on upshifts, trickier on downshifts with the timing and preciseness of the blips though, but possible too.
Click to expand...

Surely you mean a sequential box?
 
Minibull said:
Surely you mean a sequential box?
Click to expand...

Nope regular h-pattern :). Try to find a NASCAR onboard foot cam from a roadcourse race, you should see a lot of it there.

I believe you can have a "dog-box" with sequential too. As long as it's a tranny that uses dog-rings than I'm pretty sure it's considered a dog-box. Regardless though, I was talking about h-pattern :)
 
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