[REL] Porsche 911S

pixsim said:
hello mantasisg, thanks a lot for all your work,
I understand your disappointment with the number of users of your superb creations on rf2. your creations are of quality and we have low usage in front.
finally,still not many modders on rf2 . Maybe we (all modders) should join forces on a common subject. To keep rf2 alive for a few more months. your 911 is fantastic
Click to expand...

Thank you, I hope the updated car will be nice.

Modders community certainly could get stronger in rF2. At first probably should stop carrying about numbers. So what if there will be 1000 or 100 000 people downloading your mod. Many thousands of people has downloaded my mods in AC, so what ? The love doesn't get stronger from that.

I think in a way. True simulations are destined to stay niche, and not <very> popular. When thousands of people starts gathering up, and only small percentage of those appreciate simulation essentials, realism, vehicle dynamics. Very quickly the interest of physics and how car works inverts into nonsensical comedy about feelings of FFB. Maybe it is better to have fewer people.

Also as I see no future simulations to be open such as AC and rF2 is. And I wonder how long people can stay in AC so much, everyone goes there, to me it is just simply much inferior simulation comparing to rF2. I could never understand this, it is probably just a bandwagon effect. I don't think it is even possible to properly simulate 911 in AC, there is no delicate neutral steer dynamics in AC. People don't notice.

We do have a numbers situation right now. rF2 is not in active development, to me it is no reason to quit it for other simulations, makes almost no difference to me, as long there nothing better. A little bit scary. What if there will be no one left, and whole thing dies. How is that possible when there are still people playing GPL. I understand S397+MSG are almost interested to kill off rF2, leaving it without even a statement that there will be no more development, leaving people confused, guessing... But how can AC stay so high and get higher for years after official development stops, how that can not be a thing for rF2 - a much superior with way more potential platform ?

In my expectations what will happen with rF2 is what has happened with Richard Burns Rally. But it probably will be on another level, but also perhaps slower due to complexity.

Perhaps 5-4years from now S397+MSG will try to get rF3 out. But what it will be will be just simplified and smoothed out rF2, with less things about it. Barely batter. With only modern race cars. Not moddable.
 
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mantasisg said:
Thank you, I hope the updated car will be nice.

Modders community certainly could get sronger in rF2. At first probably should stop carrying about numbers. So what if there will be 1000 or 100 000 people downloading your mod. Many thousands of people has downloaded my mods in AC, so what ? The love doesn't get stronger from that.

I think in a way. True simulations are destined to stay niche, and not <very> popular. When thousands of people starts gathering up, and only small percentage of those appreciate simulation essentials, realism, vehicle dynamics. Very quickly the interest of physics and how car works inverts into nonsensical comedy about feelings of FFB. Maybe it is better to have fewer people.

Also as I see no future simulations to be open such as AC and rF2 is. And I wonder how long people can stay in AC so much, everyone goes there, to me it is just simply much inferior simulation comparing to rF2. I could never understand this, it is probably just a bandwagon effect. I don't think it is even possible to properly simulate 911 in AC, there is no delicate neutral steer dynamics in AC. People don't notice.

We do have a numbers situation right now. rF2 is not in active development, to me it is no reason to quit it for other simulations, makes almost no difference to me, as long there nothing better. A little bit scary. What if there will be no one left, and whole thing dies. How is that possible when there are still people playing GPL. I understand S397+MSG are almost interested to kill off rF2, leaving it without even a statement that there will be no more development, leaving people confused, guessing... But how can AC stay so high and get higher for years after official development stops, how that can not be a thing for rF2 - a much superior with way more potential platform ?

In my expectations what will happen with rF2 is what has happened with Richard Burns Rally. But it probably will be on another level, but also perhaps slower due to complexity.

Perhaps 5-4years from now S397+MSG will try to get rF3 out. But what it will be will be just simplified and smoothed out rF2, with less things about it. Barely batter. With only modern race cars. Not moddable.
Click to expand...
Well said ✅
 
Yes, totally agree Manta, Rf1,GTR2,GTL,F1C, GPL all long time dropped but all of these sims are actively supported.I think we should continue working on and enjoying what we have the best Sim ever released Rf2.I certainly do and have such a full jobs list of cars and tracks for myself and others to work on i struggle to complete some.
 
When update is released. Assuming you have official Thruxton track. Take all standard mod of this car. All road car spec, even standard slow steering. While fast steering is nice, it is a bit too proactive for true original 911s experience. Start on 100% wet, and just race AI till track is totally dry. That track is slowly becoming one of my favorites, or even favorite. I think it is my favorite in the wet.
 
>>>UPGRADES <<<
  • Engines: 2.0L 178hp; 2.0L 220hp; 2.2L 278hp; 2.7L 300hp
How do I get people not to miss upgrades in cars I release ? Because I know that you do miss them.

This is why I am shifting from race car to civil engine as default. The race engine reaches speeds that makes car quite unstable aerodynamically. Don't worry, in upgrades there will be two engines that are even more powerful, four engines in total.

  • Tires: 6.5inch new model; 8inch new model; 6.5inch old model; 8inch old model

Wider tires - more grip. New experimental tires should be way more realistic. I am keeping old tires because development was so long with them and I was very happy about them. And new tires might still need little bit polishing. Could be that new tires likes little higher pressures. I think new tires are better already.

Obviously with more power you should also use more tires. Although in racing advanced drivers should have no issues handling 220hp car with narrow tires and early basic 911 aerodynamics.

Wider tires also comes with Fuchs wheels.

  • Aerodynamics: Standard; Level 1; Level 2 experimental

Not graphically represented.

-Standard aerodynamics has very strong lift front and rear, Porsche used such aerodynamics till 1972. There has been an attempts to use front dams, but it caused aerodynamic imbalance. There might have been very minor aerodynamic improvements till 1972.

-Level 1 reduces front and rear lift roughly by 50%. Achieved by 1972. Rear ducktail and front dam.

-Level 2 experimental reduces front and rear lift roughly by 30% from level 1 upgrade. Probably could be considered to be a whale tail and bigger front air dam. You probably should use this with 300hp.

  • Steering rack: Quick; Standard; Very quick
Quick as a standard, because the way everyone will immedialy try to slide and drift the car on first turn. Quicker steerign makes it a lot easier to avoid tankslappers, helps to have smoother transitions out of slides. Standard steering is genuine steering, probably should be what you use with all standard car for most original experience. Very quick steering is to go with all highest performance options.

  • Brakes: Standard; Race
Obviously weaker and stronger brakes. The only difference for now is slight braking power increase with race brakes. Standard brakes might make car a little bit more civil.

  • Transmission: Manual; Semi-Automatic
Why don't you have clutch and H shifter ? And if you have, why don't you use it ? Semi Automatic option hopefully will not make the car faster. I think the driving experience as automatic is just not there with this car. Or most other historics.

Do you guys ever try upgrades when they are available ?
 
Car is getting near the update. One of the last things I am considering right now is checkign if car does not have too much rear aerodynamic lift at speeds above 180km/h, because it does have a lot of lift there.

Some conflicting data I am finding. Although conflicts are probably due to models not being identical.

Car and driver:
wLPldMD.png


And there it is little different, I suppose could be tested on later model:
taileffect.jpg

source: https://members.rennlist.com/imcarthur/tail tales.htm

Some more bits:
https://members.rennlist.com/imcarthur/tail tales2.htm

and:
tN5BEFN.png


 
I really like the car. Should it be updated now ?

I have few ideas for improving high speed stability. In particular on bumpy road. But with basic aero and narrow tire it is probably close to true. I don't want to open Pandora's box by doing little changes. All new tires is very big thing already.

911 is not a car for everyones likes, but those who can seduce it and respectfully work together it has to be very refreshing and exciting. Others can try upgrade options to simplify it further, or to make it matching a little better some particular 911 configuration you have in mind.
 
So you guys don't even ask for it to be updated, so I couldn't hold myself and did attempt slight modifications again. And this leads to balancing again, and plenty of testing in various tracks again.

I have reworked rear toe links, and lowered steering arms little bit. Results on bumpy situations are very pleasant. Just have to do very little Ackerman changes again.

Also I pulled rear "wing" part aerodynamics center point more towards car. That also obviously is resulting in car being torqued upwards from rear end not as strongly. But that needs to be fine tuned, if car is little too understeery when uncalled for, then it is not 60s 911. Understeer needs to be invited with this car.

I tried to also give miniscule effect with slight amount of rake through diffuser parameters. But that is complicated. Easy to make it too good. So probably will pass on that.

Also I might have to reduce tire wear at high heat so slightly.

Doing all that while keeping all the true essence of a 911. Lets not forget it is also going to be updated with completely new tires.
 
I will. I was having feedback from few people, that something doesn't seem entirely right. I was not taking that very critically because old 911 did have it's thing going on, and it is quite unique car due these characteristics.

But there really was an issue. I'd like to think it is solved. I don't want to stop driving around Brianza now, and can brake a lot less carefully. While everything else about the car is almost same as was, maybe just a little better. Particularly on bumpy and high speed roads.

I will have to fix similar thing in RSR 2.7 at some time.
 
Several interesting links. Not absolutely relevant, one about rake effects and other two both data from 911s model that used front lip/dam and didn't use any ducktail - obviously way too much rearwards lift distribution, I don't eve noffer such option in upgrades of mod. But still good data and helps to understand what is happening.

Elegant model modification of classic 911 3D model CFD analysis with nice graphs: https://www.vfluid.tech/project-4-porsche911

Lots of discussion about rake effects, turns out likely not very good for 911, perhaps only very small rake is good ? Still not sure about that. Check out how critical is front rideheight for front aerodynamics:
https://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/119530-911-rake-front-rear-7.html

Simply nice video:
 
mantasisg said:
Thank you, I hope the updated car will be nice.

Modders community certainly could get stronger in rF2. At first probably should stop carrying about numbers. So what if there will be 1000 or 100 000 people downloading your mod. Many thousands of people has downloaded my mods in AC, so what ? The love doesn't get stronger from that.

I think in a way. True simulations are destined to stay niche, and not <very> popular. When thousands of people starts gathering up, and only small percentage of those appreciate simulation essentials, realism, vehicle dynamics. Very quickly the interest of physics and how car works inverts into nonsensical comedy about feelings of FFB. Maybe it is better to have fewer people.

Also as I see no future simulations to be open such as AC and rF2 is. And I wonder how long people can stay in AC so much, everyone goes there, to me it is just simply much inferior simulation comparing to rF2. I could never understand this, it is probably just a bandwagon effect. I don't think it is even possible to properly simulate 911 in AC, there is no delicate neutral steer dynamics in AC. People don't notice.

We do have a numbers situation right now. rF2 is not in active development, to me it is no reason to quit it for other simulations, makes almost no difference to me, as long there nothing better. A little bit scary. What if there will be no one left, and whole thing dies. How is that possible when there are still people playing GPL. I understand S397+MSG are almost interested to kill off rF2, leaving it without even a statement that there will be no more development, leaving people confused, guessing... But how can AC stay so high and get higher for years after official development stops, how that can not be a thing for rF2 - a much superior with way more potential platform ?

In my expectations what will happen with rF2 is what has happened with Richard Burns Rally. But it probably will be on another level, but also perhaps slower due to complexity.

Perhaps 5-4years from now S397+MSG will try to get rF3 out. But what it will be will be just simplified and smoothed out rF2, with less things about it. Barely batter. With only modern race cars. Not moddable.
Click to expand...
First and foremost thanks a lot for your continiued effort on the car. This is moving into a very good direction now and I will try to give you some feedback later during the week when I have more time fore testing.

Regarding your thoughts about the general development of this genre:
The two main reasons why AC is going so strong and rF2 not, are pretty simple. Kunos sells the full Ultimate Edition of AC much cheaper compared rF2 with all the DLCs regularly and it's a never ending cycle of people trying it and then starting their car and track collecting journey. I would say the relation of the price and quality of the full package is simply more attractive than rF2 at the start. And from my perspective you really need the full rF2 package to see what this engine is capable of. The vast amount of mods for AC just helps on top of that. I think if MSG/S397 sold rF2 as an ultimate Edition for 10 or 15 Euro on a regular base people would be more motivated to give it a go and see all the depth and versatility in it's glory - that's up to MSG to fix that. When you get the full game it simply offers so much more than AC from my perspective without the need to fiddle with 3rd party stuff when you get started. And great mods like yours are the icing on the cake for me and not a necessity like in AC. The recent reviews of rF2 on Steam are very good so I see no reason why people wouldn't be able to have fun with it, it's just that the financial entry barrier is much higher.

Another very big problem from my perspective is the very Kunos focused coverage on overtake.gg/Racedepartement. At this point you can call the biggest "sim" racing blog Kunos-Departement without any hesitation and it has come to a point that my ears are starting to bleed. As soon as there is the slightest low effort mod released or used in an community event there is an article for it. There is zero coverage about rF2 and it's modding community that is obviously smaller but not less competent or less passionate. When they list the sales rF2 with it's packs even get's completely forgotten. There was an article about racing with big grid sizes and again - zero mention of rF2 that obviously offers the best package in terms of mods and features while they really expect to race Dubai 24h offline events in AC - it's really laughable to a point that you really see how hard they try to sell AC even if some of it's aspects make it objectively just a mediocre choice for certain settings. Nope, it's "the sim of the decade" ... :rolleyes:
The hype surrounding ACE and now everyone getting a real reality check is just the icing on the cake in that regard.

I think we should be glad that we got so much support for rF2 for such a long period of time and also support S397 for any of their future titles if they keep on doing what they did with rF2 and now LMU. There is alot of attention to detail and passion in both titles despite all the bad stories that people heard in the last 2/3 years and I still have high hopes that we also see some historic content in LMU to get a glympse of what this engine is capable of for future products like rF3. So don't worry too much - rF2 isn't going anywhere and it's actually better for us if updates don't break mods. And it's pretty obvious with the reaction of a lot of people who have started to realize during the last couple of months that rF2/LMU aren't as bad as people think.
 
Good news, car is pretty much ready for update.

Bad news, just as I started testing today, my T-LCM pedals throttle spring broke. Perhaps I will make my ow spring. So I can't properly evaluate recent changes. Although I haven't done anything bold, just very minor allignment of rear toe links for less bumpsteer, and minor pulling rear aero center outwards from the car.

I was looking forward for nice testing session, I feel great today, well rested and healthy. This is when you can perceive cars the best.

I could technically update the car anyway.


***********************************
@hitm4k3r Thank you, I also think that the car is going on nice direction. I would think there should be someone interested in car like this. But you are probably correct, much more people (almost all) that are interested in content like this car are spending time in AC. Even tho they are limiting themselves.

I think people are so polarised these days, that there are hardly any meaningful reviews of anything anywhere. It is rare find that there is person who is acting neither as a hater of a fan.

There are hunderds of reasons why AC/Kunos did and does better. And as far as the player numbers game goes - there is no contest. However, what I hope or hoped to is that rF2 should, could and would throw very good challenge for AC in terms of particularly cars savy, skilled people, who values great things. When I came here to rF2 I have quickly realised that it is not true, and there are mostly people who has no idea at all. It doesn't mean that all content in rF2 is bad, but there is bad content, and there is really good content - and people see no difference between two. Reasons why some content takes off and some doesn't are no less but peculiar. In AC by some fluke it just happens that everything is about average (except some cars being truly great). In past I have expected people to start noticing that they are not having it all in average simulations, because of thousands of hours of driving, and presumably checking real cars as much as possible. However, what I have discovered is that vast majority of sirmacers are just mere gamers - comparing games to games instead of simulations to reality, talking about their feelings istead of what car is doing.... all of that denies the advantages that rF2 offers and sadly makes AC more than enough, even Kunos themselves are locked there, and the dreams about cars handling in simulations as realistically as possible are dead as soon as there are more than five random people who must be pleased.

I'd like to point out that in AC, when they unlocked Porsche license, they did not have early 911. And RUF CTR never drove like it should have. I don't think a single gamer looks at real onboards and then says to themselves: "this is not how it drives in sim", and vice versa.

More savy people in rF2 ? Yes please. More random people - good financially, but principally damaging.

As far as it goes with overtakegg or what was RD. It is same thing. It is for random gamer that has been told he is simracer. It is just not genuine, and been this way for years already.

With all the respect. AC probably is a sim of decade. While rF2 and AMS and iR are better as simulations. If we would take in account marketing - all the good decisions, all the web of services around it, general streamlined finishing, stable quality and pricing - AC is clearly superior. It just isn't in a lead as simulation. In comparison to AC, people running iR and rF2 should have been asked boldly - wtf are you doing, why are you sabotaging your sim ? AC being inferior was actually cared about by its developers. iR though can't complain about it's popularity despite sveral dumb things about it. Perhaps the least lucky was AMS1, which did everything right, and to have slight success they had to downgrade with project cars dna so they could have better content. It is just unfortunate now that AC as a sim is probably ended exactly due its success - they just won't please average gamer, but they will have to keep it, because money. And Overtake.GG will hold on to that as much as possible too.

I don't think LMU will have anything historic. Maybe something from 90s at most.
 
The discussion about if AC is the sim of the decade is obviously very subjective and everyone will find a different answer for it. What I see very critical in that regard is that people more and more come up with the idea that sim racing titles need to be gamified to a point where the difficult=/= realistic has becomes a paradigm - no idea if that's the wrong word - but it has made the sim scene very bland in the last couple of years with very few devs daring something new or groundbraking as ISI did in the past when they released rF2. Objectively speaking AC is a title full of short cuts so that Kunos never had to finish anything properly wich makes it very easy to use for the masses. Thatswhy I allways considered ACC the better of the last two titles.

rF2, same as AMS1 has so much stuff under the hood that is deemed genre standard now or celebrated as something "new" in recent titles. The customization feature in ACE is a prime example for this. People get hyped about it while most people never really cared about it in rF1or rF2, or people have forgotten about it. And the modular mods that Chief created using the system just show that people have no idea what's out there because every developer tries to do the same thing and alot of people aren't looking beyond the Kunos buble or don't try stuff that is a bit older. "It looks like a PS2 game" has really become the motto of this whole genre and it's the reason why we propably won't anything revolutionary like rF2 anytime soon.

Anyway, I don't want to derail your threat too much I just want to emphasize why this platform isn't as popular as it should be. Alot of it stems from misconceptions and ignorance.
 
I think it is awesome idea to make simulators more entertaining. The bad side of it is almost inevitable "gamefication" of the essentials, what you probably mean. I have actually NFS Underground 1 (first was best) with physics simulated all the way in my dreams. But then kids and guys who just wants to "chill" will want to play, then the physics will get in the way, then... and then... and then.... Simulation can only exist and keep on improving with strict control. It is all fun and games, untill they take simulation, makes fun and games out of it, and then lie to eveybody that it is big guys stuff right there.

Anyway.... who cares about this car. 10 people who were interested have already driven their five minutes with it. Isn't it what is content culture is around there ? I mean everywhere, not just AC. Also this is already made too well, not what rF2 people chooses.

Still many issues though.

Maybe somebody knows whats up with this shading, something wrong with normal maps ? Mesh popus up with flat metalic paint:

LRovWQ6.jpeg
QqZtXTz.jpeg




AC is interesting one. They really juiced it to the max. It was celebrated a lot. For example Nordschelife was celebrated a lot. rF2 Nordschleife is 3x better. No one celebrated rF2 Nordschleife. Maybe part of it is that S397 are masters of underselling good stuff. And overselling poor stuff. Maybe they just knew that community is like that.

1lpiuWq.jpeg
 
Probably will update tomorrow. Who cares. I have been spending lots of time on blancing the car, broke my T-LCM pedals, broke throttle spring, replaced it with clutch spring temporarily. Drove car again. Was removing bumpsteer, then adding some back, then removign some again. Similarly was doing small tweaks with aero. Computer got real slow, I suspect Bill Gates generously is updating my PC again, this may interfere with responsiveness of sim, so must test more when PC runs well, but even like that car was amazing to me, felt like everything in my testing got passed. Well that everythign is what is within my interest and ability to test. I have literally no one here interested to test drive the car, and even after release I didn't really hear anything. But that is alright since people here drove 911 2.7 RSR with Lola T70 physics + some issues and were happy about it.

Give rF2 player poor item, and he will be happy. Give good item, and he will throw it away.

vKTYce7.jpeg

tylKG5v.jpeg


Headlights looks awful here for some reason.
 
@mantasisg I love and hate to read your posts, in equal measure, because you're passionate about these cars and realistic physics etc, yet you then swing to talking down community expectations and appreciation.

I've said it before, but doing anything of this with an expectation of getting lots of feedback is setting yourself up to fail. And last time I said that you basically told me you knew that already, but here you are again bemoaning the apparent lack of interest. And even then I hate to comment because if you decide to stop for a while (due to frustration or illness) I'll probably be made to feel (by me, if no one else) I was partly to blame.
 
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