Poll: Is this driving realistic?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Nieubermesch, Jan 23, 2021.

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Is this driving realistic?

  1. Yes

    31.6%
  2. No

    68.4%
  1. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    YOU CAN DO THIS IN A REAL CAR, WE HAVE POSTED TONS OF VIDEO SHOWING IT !



    Yes they are, it all depends what you are trying to do !

    Here are some tire testing sessions :




    Now I see you coming and say "yeah but this is not GT3's tires, nia nia nia"...indeed, so there are some differences but still, those are much less grippy cars and tires and they still manage to slide like crazy and keep control, usable slip angle range helps with that but this doesn't imply it is impossible with GT3's tires. Of course it will ruin tires and of course no one in a real racing situation will do this, not because it is slower (it might even be a bit faster with limited slip) but because it is way more dangerous and it may ruin the car and all team's efforts. Not to mention your tires will be to change after 3 laps !

    I'm a bit fed up with all this bad faith, you WANT there to be a problem because...well, I don't even know because of what, maybe because you think it is too easy to drive ? Not sure.

    So post me a video of a full session with this driving style and yes, I'll admit you are right. Since then, you'll have to admit our points.


    EDIT : Misread what I quoted, so here it is for the last part ...

    Women aren't that fragile you know, especially race drivers ones. And yes, there is an adjustable power steering system in GTs, important point is "ADJUSTABLE", they need to feel the car and what happens, we never said it was as strong as 80s cars, we said that steering wheel reactions will prevent such crazy moves (not to mention the driver, female or male, won't do anything crazy that could kill her / him).

    The initial post is misleading because there are 2 possible ways of answering when asking if it is realistic :

    1) can a car be driven like this ? Answer is yes, sorry but yes it is !

    2) would a real driver drive his car this way to be efficient? No, the answer is clearly no.

    Do you see the problem or not? The only question that matters to me is if a car CAN be driven this way, so we can also add the question if it would be a good thing but when we talk about realism, I'm sorry but we should not consider the talent of the driver anymore, we should only consider the capacity of the vehicle as a whole...and sorry but yes, a real car can do that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
  2. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    I see you are stubborn to your theory that higher performance tires should also overdrive easier than less grippy tires. It is not like that. Those street legal tires are much more progressive at overdriving. And people still manage to crash leaving car shows while trying to make spectacular exits :D



    Sometimes you are better off with less grip.

    By the way, these spectacular powersliding and drifting shots are mostly for show. The benchmark laptimes aren't set llike that. And yes, these are not a racing tires. Also what the hell is that Tshirt he is wearing.
     
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  3. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    The point is to know if it is possible, not if it is efficient.

    And frankly, this guy kept throttling to the max despite he was losing the car hard time ? How relevant is it ? you can do the exact same thing in rF2, need me to post a video ? :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
  4. ATQ

    ATQ Registered

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    Long time ago now so I could remember it wrong (don't think the Trofeo's were around back then, which I've hear is an excellent tire - I used to run Toyo R888's), but I think slicks can actually be easier. While not as forgiving (I've heard some say today's slicks are rather close though) they'll let you know exactly what's going on. They just give great confidence and feel. Biggest problem is that if the R-tires will last you a weekend, soft slicks will last just a few laps.


    I don't know how light they can or want to adjust the steering, but when simracers peak forces are less than in grandpa's Corolla... well, I would find it hard to believe any real racecar is setup like that.

    Reminds me a bit of rally games where some set the steering angle to something ridiculous like 180 degrees. Imagine doing that in a real rally car.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
  5. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Back to the OP:

    First video, the car movement is very controlled. The rears aren't going anywhere. Just the car movement basically looks fine. The steering, obviously, is whack. Interestingly for me, is that it appears the car's rotation increases as the steering is brought back to a normal range, which suggests to me the extreme-steering isn't about gaining grip but flattening the grip response and perhaps controlling temperature (for benefit). Again this is easier to judge with telemetry...

    Second video, I feel like the rear end is sliding around more than would be beneficial for a single corner (compared to a car driven properly) at those speeds, and should build temperatures enough to really not be worthwhile for a few corners and certainly a normal lap. If it's able to be driven that way for a competitive laptime at the top level (and not just faster than the majority of drivers, who might be 2-3 seconds off top pace anyway) it would indicate an issue for me.

    Sorry to again refuse to take one side or the other, but as usual there's a lot of variables here...
     
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  6. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    Yes real cars can do that but with such low consequences ? hell NO.
    With such high pace even for one lap ? HELL NO.
    that is the point. Damn you are struggling here.
     
  7. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    Wrong. You are missing the point about what is the problem in RF2.
     
  8. ATQ

    ATQ Registered

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    That's more a lesson in why you should not keep holding opposite lock when the rotation slows down and the rear grips again. If you don't straighten the wheels when the rotation slows down you will get a good ol' tankslapper, hit a tree with your nice car and your girlfriend will be less than impressed with you. It's got nothing to do with the tires and everything to do with lack of skill.
     
  9. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    I mean, he is posting video evidence and actually trying to have a discussion. Your reaction to it is just saying "wrong" and screaming louder. If there is anyone struggling with the discussion, it's you :D
     
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  10. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    Video evidence of a road tyre ok, lol. I don't even expect any actual contributions from you. All you do is whine about my post and like the post that are targeted towards me. You are basically non existent in this discussion.

    And ofcourse usual suspects supporting you lmao, what a fanboy club.
     
  11. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    Wrong
     
  12. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    Like i care what do you think lmao. With your observation skills i don't value your statements. you are wasting pages , post something useful.
     
  13. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    But what are the consequences on the videos ? How do you know they are low ? Because he managed to stay on track ? How many failed tries before actually recording this one ? Is it "easy" to do ?

    once again, the video don't show it, it only shows someone that managed to do a warmup lap with very few tire wear (99% at the begining) and then attacking like crazy and losing A HELL LOT MORE wear, which is a clear consequence...did you try those tires at 85% wear left ? They are slippery to the extreme !

    Now if your question is "why is it easy to do this", there are multiple answers and yes, maybe the tires are A BIT (not a lot, just a bit) too forgiving, maybe they shold be more like ACC's ones but even this is complicated to define because rF2's FFB is so precise that errors are MUCH easier to avoid and once again, FFB strength is a critical parameter as well and we have no clue how strong his one is.

    The only question I am asking is : is it possible to do this and what would be the consequences ? imho (assuming there is still some humility in this thread, especially me ?) consequences should be heavy tire wear, which is obviously the case and a lot to time lost, which is impossible to know since we can't compare with anything.

    Another point is : I tried to do like them and oversteer a lot my wheel, trust me it is far from efficient and easy to do without losing a lot of time. Sure, if they manage to be as fast or even faster, there might be a problem (maybe) but from what I've tested, it is far from easy to do and far from "no consequence".
     
  14. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    the irony haha
     
  15. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    The problem is that you ENFORCE the "exploit", everything you post is about explaining why others's arguments are not relevant (telemetry, videos, analysis, reports, manufacturer's documentation, reference books, etc...) while your OPINION is a must consider thing, much more important than any other proof of any kind.

    Do you realise you even replied me that telemetry was wrong so we shouldn't trust it ?

    Then you insult others just because they don't follow you in your crusade and search for evidences and proofs...seriously, how do you want us to judge your "contributions" ?

    If you can't answer anything but "fanboys" or "usual suspects", it means don't have any more arguments and maybe you should try to do what some of us are doing : try to understand what we should get by reading real experts reports on the matter and compare with what we actually get but since "telemetry is wrong", of course it becomes much easier to try to discredit the others...
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
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  16. MarcG

    MarcG Member

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    How about this side of the argument; Of the posters here & other threads, are any of them actually good enough in their race craft to warrant seriously listening too on the potential flaws of the Sim? Or are they just average drivers "thinking" they're Michael Schumacher and seeing what they believe are "flaws", when in reality it's their own skill sets not being good enough to actually determine what a "flaw" is?

    For Example; A Race Engineer will listen more closely to a Driver whose had 1000 Race Starts than he/she would if a Driver had just 10. The same rule applies here, Should the Devs listen to experienced Sim Racers with a history of Sim Racing more closely, than a few Sim Racers who perhaps have only done a few Races Online and a bunch Offline and continually post in multiple threads without providing hard facts?

    I'm certainly not saying the Devs should ignore everyone/anyone regardless of their Sim Racing Skills, all constructive feedback is great when presented in a pleasant manner with good intentions by anyone with any amount of experience. But they have to be careful, especially in topics surrounding Physics, they they get the right feedback from people who actually A) Know what they're talking about, B) Have vast experience in the right scenarios and C) Present good feedback with detailed Analytics & Data.

    At the end of the day the Devs (generalising here not just S397) have Coders and Experts working for them alongside Real Drivers & Engineers (as Testers) who have the Knowledge, have the experience and also have the means to get the hard data first hand. It's therefore my personal prerogative that I entrust in what they put out in their Sim (of choice) over the ranting of a few people in multiple threads on a forum, for sure not every Dev has it 100% spot on and no doubt some issues/flaws exist in each and every Sim. But for the most part it's their Code, their Data, their expertise and their Sim needs to be treated as their vision of what Real Race Driving is like.
     
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  17. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Well what we do talk is that it is too efficient in rF2. Abussing limits does not hurt momentum enough and is too stable in OP examples, instead it is usable as valid driving technique. You can not prove it being otherwise with street tires. Even those street tires has decent sharpness in them.

    I agree you should be able to do same in rF2 with cars from OP, but you'd need to force yourself to do it wrong or have zero practice and skill, instead of putting effort for it to not go wrong (assuming you are skilled driver). There is other rF2 content that would require you effort to keep car stable and momentum going smoothly at the limits. It is all parameters.

    And this car spun because the driver lifted off trottle. Basically because of what ATQ said here:

    Your post was very nice, till you said that it has nothing to do with tires... It has everything to do with tires. The amount of grip, slip curves, the transients... and so on and on. Everything else about the car and about driving technique is always all about tire, maximising its performance and maintaining stability. Tire is plain foundation to everything what happens with the car next.

    This driver would not have tankslapped the tree if his tires would have had lesser grip. He simply would have had smoother, slower, more progressive transition from sliding to gripping up, maintained good control of that car, and then he would have impressed his girlfriend.
     
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  18. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    So this morning I did my deeper testing of the physics update of the FE car. Here is pretty much the entire process I went trough. To me it just feels like on the limit driving is very far from actually on the limit of spinning or losing control. Although it is a big step forward. The drifting is far less a thing than before (from what I remember), but still the hairpins have that drifting need to be fast
     
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  19. ATQ

    ATQ Registered

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    I should have said it has nothing to do with the type of tires. I don't think there are any tires where he could have pulled that off. Maybe on a slippery road he would have just spun out. Maybe...

    I mean, look at where his front wheels are pointing. When the initial slide slows down he's basically telling the car: "Hey, look - let's hug the pretty tree over yonder!". As the rotation slows down that's exactly where the car would want to go (cars are stupid that way - obeying their drivers), so the rear swings back, grips and sends the car. The driver even adds throttle at that point as to really emphasise where he wants the car to go.

    With driving like that there's no way he could have impressed his girlfriend.
     
  20. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    This could be easily tested and checked, I find it interesting so I'll do some testing and maybe post a video about this. You might be right, maybe it is "too easy" to do but I'm 100% sure there are consequences that does not benefit in the long run.

    But to test this I have to do complete stint, not single laps out of nowhere. And of course, I have to record times when I lose the car as well, after all the question is : is it a clear exploit that ruins the experience ? if it is doable but with great consequences or very hard to do, is it really a problem ?
     
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