Poll: Is this driving realistic?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Nieubermesch, Jan 23, 2021.

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Is this driving realistic?

  1. Yes

    31.6%
  2. No

    68.4%
  1. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Well, I don't know and I am trying to use my full mental capacity to process the first document, wich is a Master thesis by the way. I should check out the year of publication, as studio 397 after all has made modifications to the tyres around 2017, I think?

    I can say that I can feel the tyre response to not be instantaneous and one can feel it with FFB, so I don't think that's the problem. They might need more "lag" though, that's another thing.
     
  2. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Ahahah, I was resisting commenting on the voting man... :D:D
    After all it doesn't really prove anything by itself, but it can be helpful to take a look at the people more active with Rfactor2 what the state the sim is in and if some revision is needed :)

    You need to try the new cars that just came out. Just started a race here and jesus, how snappy are these guys!! Lexus and Honda Gt500. Practicing they feel very slidy, but when the race starts and I think the road is more rubbered in, they feel grippy and snappy. Understeer also seems to have a more prounounced effect of making cars follow the trajectory of the car, not turning the more one steers :cool:
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
  3. ATQ

    ATQ Registered

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    Slow it down if it's hard to catch what's going on. The video shows slippage and inputs very close to the in-game video.

    Well, the tires have a lot of bite and the cars are very "sharp". They have a fast drop-off in traction beyond a certain slip angle and can really bite back when regaining grip. Drivers need quick reactions as well as fast and accurate input to sort these situations out.
    However, same thing goes for rFactor 2. Cars are sharp and bite back, on and over the limit they go between slide and bite, and when things go south it can happen very fast. How many times have you crashed when over-driving the car? How many tankslappers have you hade, how many times have you hit a wall because you were too slow or over-corrected, and how many times have you become a passenger when the car slides out in a gracious arc? I bet you and everyone else has done that a lot.
    My point being, it's easy to forget how many times you crash in a sim because it has no real consequences. The you look at someone who's died well over ten thousand times in the sim, sliding the car around...

    Controlled sliding is also much easier than saving an unexpected slide. The sliding in the in-game video is no piece of cake either. It takes practice, doing it smoothly and balancing the car without upsetting it and losing control - because, as I mentioned, the cars do actually bite back.

    By the way, it's easy for everyone to drive something on slicks, that's light and has very stiff suspension: karts. They are quick, sharp, bitey and so on, but... you can definitely slide them around - as you can a racecar on slicks. Sometimes a little bit of sliding can be faster too, at least until your tires are out.
     
  4. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    chewing gum tyres, that is what rf2 tyres feel like lol. Too much elasticity (can go big angels on these gt slicks) and not enough tension to return it back (i.e no bite back to snap it back to grip quickly & strongly ).
     
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  5. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    GT Pro series Risto Kappet here. Does this look legit to you? I honestly don't understand how one doesn't find anything odd but whatever, I mostly don't drive anything close to this, not that I couldn't, I just choose to not do any of that. Some cars in Rfactor2 if you try to do this type of thing, crazy speed in corners and throwing the car, you will toast the tires very early and stability of grip is nothing like that, a sort of controlled understeer/plenty of rotation still, not mentioning how much the car seems to float with the 4 wheels on the track and not realistically, as I've saw videos of that and it doesn't look as safe as this ever.

    A bit of sliding can be faster, but is still dangerous, pretty sure of that, and it's a BIT OF SLIDING, what we see is more than that and that's the problem. If it wasn't so strange at some instances I wouldn't care that much.

    There are moments when it bites back, I totally attest to that, and some cars you can clearly see what some of us think is missing. Cars like the new ones just released, the super GT Honda, Camaro GT3, and at least one more I am not remembering now. On those cars even induced sliding is more difficult than many of the unexpected slides that some of the new cars presents.

    Studio 397 already had to make adjustmens to the tyres because of the same matter if I read correctly... they were saying that their car (think it was a radical) was behaving like a kart... Now you come and tell me that karts can be simillar to GT cars driving? Something is off. I think they didn't went far enough when they improved the tyre model just some years ago. Maybe you know, but Studio 397, contrary to what many believe here, can actually code and has introduces some neat simulation aspects to the game (chasis flex, some aero improvements and more, if you are able to find the documented log of changes they made on the "About Studio 397" here on Rfactor2 main page).
     
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  6. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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  7. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    "So everything was rosy, we thought, and then we finally obtained the same type of data from another tyre manufacturer. This time, they went to the extra step of measuring at multiple loads. Once we had this corroborating information, it became obvious there was a glaring issue with our tyre model. Of course, this was an original part of the tyre model that hadn’t been touched for years, taken for granted. Furthermore, this was essentially a non-issue before the introduction of the contact patch model. After a little thinking and investigating, it became obvious that our ‘harmless’ simplification, wasn’t so harmless after-all."

    "To describe the effect in practical terms, after some early testing, it is quite obvious that the ‘speed sensitivity’ of tyres is decreased. A reduction of speed sensitivity, meaning that the tyres lose less grip as a direct consequence of rotational speed. The resulting contact patch is a little bigger (longer), especially when compared to the previous tyres under a combination of both high speed and load. As you apply slip angle, the longer contact patch increases the sliding speed towards the trailing edge of the contact patch,
    making tyres more prone to overheat at high speed. A larger patch also increases cooling (as contact conductance is the primary driver of heat dissipation in a tyre). In general, tyre temperatures will probably be slightly higher, so you may need to increase conductance slightly to achieve realistic temperatures. In terms of overall feeling, this is the biggest change in rF2 since the introduction of the contact patch model. This also marks the first major change to the QSA model itself in the 5 years since its rF2’s inception. To describe the change in words, would be to say that the car feels less ‘slidey’ and more stable in high speed corners. This was a prominent issue with the Radical SR3-RSX that we released earlier in the year which, I admit, would fishtail more like it was on bias-ply’s, than modern radial tyres. This has now been addressed with our latest release, and this is our best back to back comparison for those wanting to feel the difference in the models."

    Oh!! Does any bells start to ring now people? Yes it was improved it seems, but by how much? Studio 397 might have been satisfied, but doesn't mean it was enough already.

    https://www.studio-397.com/2017/12/6512/

    Direct words from studio 397 themselves and what could be happening, left over from "being satisfied and taken for granted"....
     
  8. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    So what, we're back to the model is wrong?

    Circles.. all the pretty circles.
     
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  9. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    True, not my intent, it just led me to that, altough probably some "brushing" on the tyre after it's generation can mean that some mods/modders can make a tyre that doesn't really suffer from the problems. I am not even sure if what they mean is the "core model" or their model... I am not sure if rotation speed is what I am reading into. Is it rotation of the wheel/tyre itself or speed of rotation in relation to the car?
     
  10. ATQ

    ATQ Registered

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    I must say I'm a bit offended by his seating position and seeming lack of force feedback. The latter is a bit difficult to judge through a video but the wheel looks very light to me. While I don't belong to the school of thought that force feedback should be a viable substitute for weight lifting, unless perhaps you drive cars with real muscle servos, I think a light setting like that is unrealistic and helps a lot for quick manoeuvres.
    As for the sliding, it looks pretty good. There's nothing that stands out as obvious there. To determine the accuracy of the simulation we'd need real data as it's close enough to the real thing that it's not possible to judge from videos.
    I agree that the car looks floaty, but the fact that it looks floaty doesn't mean that it is. There's no camera shake or any other visual ques to communicate what's going on with the car - it's even hard to connect the steering input to what's going on. Real life footage doesn't have a perfectly stable dashcam.
    Driving in VR I've never felt it to be floaty (unless I'm mistaken I think there are some default shake and forces as well - I haven't touched the settings). On flat panels, all sims look a little floaty to me. It doesn't mean that the cars are. Look at the cars in replay mode and they look quite connected to the road, reacting very well to the inputs and the surface.

    It boils down to a couple of things I think you are misjudging here.

    First is how much the cars are sliding. Look at the cars in front of Risto Kappet. They're sliding about as much as he is. That is indeed a bit of sliding. It actually looks very much like a video on slip angles posted in the other thread, with real car footage. There really isn't that much sliding going on, except a couple of places like the hairpin.
    I suspect the disconnect from the floaty look and the sounds are throwing you off. If you look at the angles of the cars in front, however, they are well within reason.

    Secondly I think you're overestimating how dangerous and difficult it is to slide these cars. Big difference also between deliberately and controlled versus unexpected. I'm not saying "piece of cake" but it ain't iRacing. Still trying to find a video I saw a couple of years ago of touring cars sliding during racing (deliberately so) and showing off some drifting for the audience, Meanwhile, maybe this will do:


    As you see, the cars offer good control. Obviously they're going slow but it's not like the tires just lose all grip. When going smoothly and balancing the car most cars won't try to kill you if you overcook it.

    Haven't tried those cars so I don't know.

    What I'm saying is that karts drive on slicks, which should have similar characteristics as their larger counterparts, plus very stiff suspension (only tire and chassis flex) and very quick steering making them very twitchy. Therefore sliding them should be tricky and punishing for the same reasons as a racecar, except downforce (but we're not talking ground effect cars here). And well, they are, but if you go about it smoothly and taking care to balance them right you can slide around quite a bit - no problem. It's certainly not the same as driving a GT car but we have the same fundamental problem with high peak grip with a fast drop-off as the slip angle increases, stiff suspension and quick reactions. The great thing is that karts are available to everyone (with possible exceptions of lock-down rules) as point of reference.
     
  11. ATQ

    ATQ Registered

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    Woah, hang on now! You can't use the fact that S397 improved the tire model as indicative that there are remaining problems. The only conclusion to be drawn is that they found a problem and addressed it. Nothing more and nothing less.
     
  12. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    Seems like you bet wrong. The reason I am saying stuff can be improved, is exactly because I hardly ever manage to spin or get to the point of no return. As I said about my experience with the Fe car, I tried to get it in such a situation, and only managed to get there once...

    Gt3e I am driving the 2020 Bentley in. Both me and my team mate had moments where we got to insane slip angles, and could simply catch the car, even though it should've been a point of no return.
     
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  13. ATQ

    ATQ Registered

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    For how long has that been so? I'd argue that if you hardly ever manage to spin you're just not driving badly enough (I've seen a couple of your videos so I can't argue that you're going slow).

    Personally, on tracks that I know with cars I'm familiar with, I rarely have accidents (cold tires though, ugh...). Which I think is in order. Still not able to push a fast pace on the Nordschleife for more than a few laps without crashing though. But looking at it since I started? Yeah, a LOT of crashes.
     
  14. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Of course tires are still tires, they aren't totally unrealistic. The sensations are relative to skills and experience, average skilled simracers might have "unrealisitc" tire sensations to be of similar magnitude that pro driver would have at overdriving "realisitc" tire.

    Also I agree that same demand of handling the limits is possible in rF2, not every tire and car is made in the same way in rF2, but we are talking about these two videos from opening post.

    I sure did have spins with these cars, but they usually happens in practicing while specifically trying how far stuff can be pushed. Otherwise spins at that forgiveness levels would happen for these reasons: low skill and experience, no practice, too irrational driving, loosing interest while driving and stopping to care about driving completely and loosing 100% of concentration, being half asleep, being drunk, being much too tired.

    Fear is important factor, but racers are not that much of cowards to stay away from limits and highest possible pace. Usually they are encouraged and paid to do so. And if they don't do it, they are simply not true racers.

    Not saying that this kind of driving is easy as displayed in opening post, but the fact is just thats how it has to be driven. It is just physics stuff. Real tires would be less eager to slide, and more eager to bite in, sliding would be more choppy and breaking the momentum, destabilising handling more as it would be harder for a driver to be precise with that kind of driving. Not sayign that any sliding is unrealistic, but it should be a lot more carefully weighted, more awareness requiring endeavour in means of not only keeping at the limit for fastest pace, but also for not overcooking it and just simply ruining the laptime, not only just totally spinning out. IRL it is much more of a sport to drive at the limit, at least of how I see it.

    I am not entirelly sure if it is that easy to drive on slicks, however, I have heard that it is common practice to put on rain tires for people who doesn't have an experience, thats because rain tires are lower peaking, slower progressing and more forgiving. I guess it depends on slick tires as well.
     
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  15. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    There is EXTREMELY interesting read about supposedly first ever public test of slick tread racing tire. Starts at page 119 and ends in page 120, this was found by woochoo. These were Michelin tires.

    https://books.google.com.au/books?id=fzhWRqCFuPYC&lpg=PA120&dq=alpine a210 1967 le mans slick&pg=PA118#v=onepage&q=alpine a210 1967 le mans slick&f=false

    Dunlop tires were probably just a little behind: https://www.stuckey.com.au/News-and-Info/ArtMID/462/ArticleID/14/The-Evolution-of-Race-Tyres

    Interesting read, I think.

    EDIT: IMO so interesting that perhaps even worthy separate thread, but maybe not now.
     
  16. Stevy

    Stevy Registered

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    Is this driving realistic?
    No, but it's the most enjoyable driving for me in simracing. That's enough for me.
     
  17. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    ...the only issue is tire pressure, it is known for a long time and yes, of course, at lower pressure the tire is deforming way more...

    Tire is also applying a much bigger contact patch when pressure is low, this is another consequence of the already known issue. Use realistic pressure if you want to check core physics...

    ...oh, and you can use the pressure you want if you can show a full tank session driving like this and keeping the same pace, if you find someone who manage to do this in a video, then I will admit without any problem that there is an issue.

    Good luck, for what I've tested, this is near to impossible because as soon as you reach 85% (even 90% is way more slippery) of tire wear, grip is greatly reduced, so when you see someone RUINING 4% of tire wear in a single lap, you already know he will be forced to change tires in 2 or 3 laps or clearly lose time and be forced to change driving style.

    But ok, show me this video and you'll prove your point.


    Ah but no wait I forgot, telemetry lies to us, the game doesn't understand it well, the values seem to be correct but since the game uses telemetry in a bad way (it doesn't matter that telemetry is a consequence and not a cause but never mind...) we shouldn't use the argument of telemetry...

    Practical as a response system...
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
  18. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    It is realistic....it is ruining tires but still, you can do this in a real car.

    Your mechanical team is not going to applaud you though...
     
  19. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    Exactly and this parameter is clearly underestimated, in a real car it would be IMPOSSIBLE to make this kind of movement. The lack of realism doesn't come from the game but from the simracing hardware configuration in this case but that again, it's something that is hard to get into some heads...
     
  20. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    The point is that this can even be done for one lap THAT is the problem.
    I have NOT seen a single real life qualifying like this. even the mclaren nords qualifying lap was much more on edge, it seemed to require much more precision and care than RF2. All the quick oversteer correction you seen in REAL GT cars are so fast and precise DESPITE having TC... now you can imagine how much more harder it will be without TC, compared to RF2 in my experience NO TC is quite easy.

    Such driving technique is not used IRL even for single lap , NOT because of FFB is strong. it is quite ridiculous to think that you cannot turn the steering at same force as you can in these RF2 videos. modern race cars have power assist steering, woman can thrash them easily FFS !
    Plus such technique will be way slower lap times IRL , you don't throw a modern aero race cars on slicks like a go kart or rally car. IRL they MINIMISE the steering input to stop the excessive scrubbing contrary to what needs to be done in RF2.
    IRL oversteery setup is fast for qualifying. because you can get maximum rear end rotation with minimum steering input. Although they DON'T do ridiculous stuff like detached arb , low camber and leman aero even on slowest , bumpiest circuits.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021

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