Poll: Is this driving realistic?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Nieubermesch, Jan 23, 2021.

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Is this driving realistic?

  1. Yes

    31.6%
  2. No

    68.4%
  1. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    thanks for proving my point
     
  2. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Those are valid points, and to a degree I do think we might be asking too much, but how much is too much? If a problem exists and it's not something that only a million dollar simulation can solve, why can't it be solved? I really wished someone from the Dev team came here and told us what physics improvements are those that I've heard about some time ago. Let's hope it's fixing some of these problems, if they indeed are problems in the first place.
     
  3. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Certainly true that some people here are coming up with some excuses that don't hold up. I'll refrain from being too assertive about my position but I voted "No".
    I think if possible, some people here can take those looks into things and I am not sure how telemetry works, but I am sure it can be helpful to compare and the ones who understand car physics better, should notice descrepancies with reality, so don't brush off telemetry as it can help our side too.
    I don't want neither haters or fanboys to ruin Rfactor2, I want it to thrive, as the potential seems bigger than any other, and if the devs are creating cars right now, that aren't holding up to scrutiny, at least Rfactor2 should lose some credibility to affirm themselves as the most realistic simulation on the market. If you want to brag about it it better be true. It can still be true, but if you are not creating content that is up to the standards what does that matter? The DLC content isn't also the cheapest around either. I want Studio 397 to thrive as we all thrive with them.
    Just wishing some statement from them right now. This is a complex and delicate subject. We shouldn't expect them to just change the sim based on complains from anyone, but if some of ours findings are based and true, it shouldn't take that much for the devs to figure it themselves too, or does it?
     
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  4. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    @Comante I think that is not correct. Hardware will not make physics better. However physics can make hardware better. I also don't know why some pro team builds millions worth simulation systems, perhaps just because they can.

    Yes that was epic stuff that tire war. I actually meant the same thing and you are correct as well, same thing was written in Paul Haneys book in a part when he interviewed Bridgestone engineer. Grooves were for reducign the grip, and making the tire more predictable, less demanding. Thats what I meant by "more drivable", those tires were already very much on/off switches, with higher grip they would have been even more on/off switches, working at even higher frequency. That would have made them less drivable, drivers would not have been able to keep up with them, those tires would just have been inhumanly fast in changing their attitude (sliding vs gripping).

    The main thing, the tricky thing, here is that higher peaking, higher performance will not make car easier at the limit, it will make car more difficult at the limit. The fruit will simply hang higher. Also it seems that the higher tire performance goes, the quicker everything happens. Basically everything starts happening in less time and with greater amplitude of a change in performance (hence - on/off switch). Oh and sure there will be worse and better tires, as well as worse and better cars, but in general no way the tire could have modern wide low profile radial slick performance, and narrow high profile treaded bias ply behaviour, although in simulation it can.
     
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  5. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    I also don't think so. But it actually could be a possibility.

    Tire shearing in rF2 does affect grip. S397 tires are known of having quite rapid abrasive wear and then quick giving up, even noticed by Michelin company after virtual LeMans.

    It is a possibility that their typical tire gets too much rubber shearing at around optimum temps, and then not enough tire shearing at high temperatures (such as those that should be reached during excessive sliding).

    So the point is fair. Except that this mechanic is implemented in rF2, but the thing in question is parametrisation.

    Edit: by the way, I expect that Michelin would have such data, and would be willing to share. But in case of any tire changes I imagine the "holy" BallanceOfPower would get messed up - bad.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
  6. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    Could this tyre wear that michelin talked about is because how cars NEED to be driven ?
     
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  7. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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  8. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    YOUR answer is no, not THE answer.

    Any obvious problems? No kidding, how much time are we going to spend answering the same things to the same remarks before you admit that you're not necessarily right?

    It's getting more than annoying actually, you WANT there to be a problem but you've never been able to point it out, all we see here are two people who don't drive properly, at no damn time do we know if they're saving time or if their car is not deteriorating from driving like a beginner.

    And now you even state that telemetry is false and misleading, SERIOUSLY ? Because YOU think it should do something else ? Watch the "crazy saves" serie of video and try to explain how FLAWED reality is !

    What do you want? For the car to end up in a wall every time it slips slightly? Play iRacing, you'll get served!

    And it's starting to swell to be insulted just because we don't think like you. You're not the burning bush, you don't hold the truth, you have a point of view that's worth just what it's worth: a point of view!

    As someone asked in this very thread : what do you expect the car to do actually ? Explode ? Die ? Slip like crazy ? Seriously, just give an answer to this very legit question !
     
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  9. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    First one is losing 4% of tire wear in a single lap, it is not a tiny amount for a single lap, you start to get serious problems after 10 or 15% of tire wear, so driving like he did can hold for 4 maybe 5 laps before having serious issues.

    The second one we don't even know what is going on...so hard to assume "in real life it would be more punishing", isn't it ?


    These are only a single lap, I fail to see anything really incredible, attacking like this will cause issues before long, just try it yourself, empty a full tank driving like this and post the video.

    A single lap, damn it...
     
  10. Dave^

    Dave^ Registered

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    My point being, “realistic simulators” cost tens of thousands of pounds, usually for 1 single car.

    RF2 costs £25 and has many cars, even with the economy of scale, the costs still don’t add up.

    The realistic simulator has to work with 1 (custom) steering wheel, and 1 (custom) set of pedals.

    RF2 (and the others) has to work with anything from a £25 wheel, up to and including the custom stuff mentioned above.

    Then there’s the motion stuff.... and the screens, and the pc builds...
     
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  11. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Jesus man, it's not only about being able to do it only 5 laps, it's that it is possible just one time at all... What about not being possible at all? And don't forget this are extreme examples. How many times people will get away with driving not so carefully and being able to wing it? This are the extremes with setup changes, but it doesn't quite go away without that, assuming physics issues are there... Of course... It's also about the pleasure of difficulty wich should match real life, not only driving the propper way.
     
  12. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Again, it seems not only slip angel is being stubborn, as you also are, making comparison with saves and driving in a way that nowhere near that pushing is requiring those crazy saves. If they are crazy saves why is that? Because it was very difficult to catch it and Rfactor2 way sometimes is saving cars as casual stuff is happening and sometimes the car will not enter the limit at all, wich is the problem of this videos..
     
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  13. Pawel44

    Pawel44 Registered

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    Not a chance something like this is realistic. Such driving style reminds me Dirt Really. Furthermore, it seems full throttle in the corners doesn't affect steering much.
     
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  14. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    No is THE answer, it is obvious. Man you guys and your excuses and pure lack of simple observation skills.
     
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  15. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    This very much. This really is a bad thing for hotlap qualfiers and qualifying in general. Now the FE car did get a physics/tire model update (?) which I only tried the default setup of atm. Tomorrow I will try to exploit it (probably on video) as I was pretty good with that car before.

    But here are my findings up until now (only did a few laps though)
    The car is more understeery (could just be the setup) and harder to get into the oversteery rally style drift. This also has to do with it having a single gear now, where you cant use the shifting to lock the rears a bit.

    2 important things I encountered.
    1- At the last few corners of Monaco ePrix I had a genuine spin as I overcooked it into there. There was a point of no return it felt like, although I didn't encounter it any other time after that.

    2- Although the gymkhana drift was harder to pull off, it still was a few tenths quicker with the default setup (could be because the def set is understeery which is not good for a hairpin). It isn't as effective as it was anymore though.

    But tomorrow I will try to see how it behaves with different setups and how those 2 things evolve
     
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  16. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Didn't catch the updated tyre on the FE and I read the last upadte blog on that, might have missed it though, as I don't have it. It will be good news, if it's improved and then improvements can transition to other cars. Let's see. There are also two new cars on workshop. Just drove a mile or so in imola, but they didn't seem bad at all, different feeling on the tires then studio 397, but thei're different cara after all.
     
  17. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Tarmac right? I didn't think of that and Dirt rally is much more simplified on grip than Rfactor2, but it kind of reminds me of that, some floatiness when pushing the car beyond whats possible look in RF 2
     
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  18. Pawel44

    Pawel44 Registered

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    I'm sorry for spamming, but I can't edit my comment anymore. There's a study I posted on this forum some time ago and there's a deep analysis of rF2 tire model:

    https://www.politesi.polimi.it/bitstream/10589/153184/1/Optimisation of the tyre model in rFactor2 environment for AVEHIL professional simulator.pdf

    If I'm reading it correctly one of the problems lays in the lack of the tire lag simulation:

    https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/910235/

    I bet this is simulated in ACC - thus the cars are sometimes sluggish at high speeds. In rF2 they remain far more responsive.

    P.S. By tuning tires parameters they got results that are much closer to reality in the end.
     
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  19. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Man, what a finding! Need to read that asap. Never really noticed any of that. Will try comparing with ACC or even AC.

    By the way, refrain from posting too much about other simulations, as people see that as a fan of the other game and they have to be biased automatically because of that :rolleyes:
     
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  20. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Hey guys, someone is sabotaging voting... :(


    *******************
    Yeah never underestimate parameters power in simulation....

    And is that paper from 1991 ? I am also looking forward to take a look at the first one you shared.

    And isn't this slip angle lag thing also known as tire relaxation length ? Not sure about high speeds, I think this effect should be more noticeable at slow speeds, and I am not sure, but I think it works in rF2 brush model.

    Thats an interesting bit in here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relaxation_length
    "The relaxation length associated with camber thrust has been found to be nearly zero.", this means that with camber there should be no lag (if this is same thing at all) ? makes sense, as I remember watching Niels video, he explained that tires with camber genrates grip before they start doing anything, they are like "I am ready, sir" :D
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
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