Poll: Is this driving realistic?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Nieubermesch, Jan 23, 2021.

?

Is this driving realistic?

  1. Yes

    31.6%
  2. No

    68.4%
  1. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    I probably missed several such details and indeed I didn't know that a liter of fuel weighs only 740g.

    That said I wanted to check at least at the telemetry level if the car was not too light and a point bothers me a little bit actually, we had already talked about it in private it seems to me, why is the vertical acceleration at 0G at standstill? It's quite possible that it's the variation value compared to 1 precisely (otherwise the car would weigh absolutely nothing when stopped for example) but I find this choice quite curious and potentially a source of error in part of the code. Of course now what puzzles me is that my previous posts are much more wrong that I thought since actual gravity isn't even took into account, so the car is even "heavier" (weight, not mass) due to movement, how can it feel "light" then ?
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2021
  2. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Would you feel better if I changed my plugin so it added 1g vertically?

    It really makes absolutely zero difference. This is no indicator whatsoever of an oversight or potential error in the game code. That's exactly the sort of suggestive thinking that has powered 3/4 of these largely pointless threads.
     
  3. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    Ok it's time to see R/L videos of cars flying and floating in the air in unbelievable ways.
    What we have to do now? Keep posting about empty claims and waste time to debunk them? Do you see that even if sometimes you may be on something, this attitude will never win wars?
     
  4. davidporeilly

    davidporeilly Registered

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    Hmmmmm,




    OK?
     
  5. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    No, I would feel better if everyone put some of their own into it, several people complain about something, I make hypotheses that I try to confirm or invalidate, come and tell me that it is because of this kind of hypothesis that these people question rF2 is clearly putting the consequence before the cause, at the level of the arrow of time we are in what is called a paradox: the hypothesis comes from the doubts, not the opposite!

    It seems obvious to me that a priori there is no problem, at least at the level of telemetry. I'm just trying to understand the results obtained and to validate them, I have to start with the basics, so I have to start by knowing how the different forces applied to the car are measured, whether I should add 1G vertical or not in the calculations in summary.

    I really don't see why YOU take it wrong, having a channel at 0 instead of 1 is not your choice, is it? Anyway, I can correct it very easily myself, I was just hypothesizing that this "1G" could have been forgotten in one function or another, which should not be impossible to check with telemetry since we know the approximate weight of the vehicle.

    In my opinion, what is much more counterproductive is to reject all hypotheses abruptly without even trying to validate or invalidate them.
     
  6. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    I'm doing it mostly for myself, in fact, I know I'm not going to convince those who want there to be a problem, at one point I was trying to understand why they were so keen to find a problem but in the end it doesn't matter, what these discussions have proved is that a person who is convinced of something will not change his mind easily, if he changes his mind one day, even in the face of evidence he finds himself in cognitive dissonance and ends up becoming aggressive. So I don't even try to convince anymore, I just try to know, for me and my sunshine...
     
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  7. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Indeed change of mind won't come easily, some people who are just interested in their own narrative will never change. People who are neutral and independent thinkers, deeply interested in how reality works can change their mind once they become certain of being wrong.
     
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  8. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    And as you mentioned, in private messages you also asked about this, and twice I explained that being 0 instead of 1 isn't an issue, doesn't mean anything, it's just been chosen to be 0-based (and as I also said, if they went all-out and included things like altitude for air pressure and the like, and also varied the value of g, they might choose to make it 1-based instead, or just keep it 0 and go positive/negative from the base value). Yet you still come here and talk about it exactly the same way, in one of these stupid threads where people with nothing better to do will probably pick it up and add it to their list of things rF2 is doing wrong and which collectively prove it's all wrong, or partly wrong, or the model is wrong, or it's not but sort of is, or whatever.

    Back 2 threads ago based on a video that didn't prove anything or even properly illustrate its own point, I said in the very first reply that issues in a particular car don't mean there's an issue in the game as a whole. And here we still are, no one proving otherwise but constant searching for the underlying flaw or issue, and new players or those already against rF2 probably picking bits up here and there and repeating them all over the place. Someone's probably right now talking about rF2 gravity being wrong (and that's a reference to Slip rather than you, just for info).

    So yeah, I'm rejecting it, not because I haven't thought about it, but because I understand what it is. If I made it 1-based in my plugin you'd have no idea what the game is putting out, so just consider that the situation. There's no difference.

    Are there issues? Yes! We aren't blind! We can see the way (some) people are driving and going fast! But that doesn't mean I'm happy to entertain every theory that someone comes up with because I think rF2 is flawed and maybe this or that is the thing that finally brings it out into the open and we can force the devs to take action. Some cars have some issues, heck, many car have issues, but if people are going to say that rF2 as a whole has flaws they better put some effort into actually nailing down some facts and figures or they'll be dismissed - right or wrong, because without proof it's all guessing - and rightfully so, by people who don't want rF2 to die and especially to die because people are effectively making up stories about it.
     
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  9. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Frankly some questionable developments in rF2 creates this precedent of "hunting rF2 physics down". I disagree with that, I think if anything is not right in rF2 regarding physics, it is mostly because rF2 has not been used correctly in reference to reality while building physics for a piece of content.

    It also has to do with perceptions and misjudgement. Any of us could be guilty to a degree including all of the people participating in development of cars that are main interest of rF2 subject these days...

    I am generally worried that possibly poorly made, managed, released and officially endorsed cars physics can kill rF2. People who comes and blames rF2 as fundamental reason for anything being wrong could either have little understanding, or have general secret goal to defame rF2 physics.

    But then again... we have guys who are hard on the right side of spectrum wanting cars to be hardcore and demanding, and we have people hard on the left side that wants fun and giggles while carelessly going sideways anywhere anyhow.

    Trust no one.
     
  10. Havner

    Havner Registered

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    You have new people coming to RF2, they will most probably drive the newest greatest and most advertised content there is now. GT3, GTE, LMP. And they can be driven strangely. They go online and see what other people do with those cars. They think that this is not right.

    Tell me, why would they care if that is a problem with those cars or with the core RF2 physics? I don't.

    You constantly try to differentiate whether the issues are with the cars or with the RF2. I get the point. Going into details is important. But for people that will possibly fix those issues (which I doubt will ever happen). But from the end user experience it doesn't matter. At all! It's wrong, period. We can't know what is wrong anyway as we don't have either RF2 source code or those cars deciphered. Only S397 can.

    You sound like you're on crusade to prove that core RF2 physics has no issues (or at least that nobody proven there are some). Ok! I agree! There are no issues in RF2 core. Great!
    Now, so what? The official cars are wrong anyway.
     
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  11. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    it is basically preset in all GT DLC cars and lmp/dpi cars......what other content left that matters ? it is problem that can be seen in core content ...for which people BUY this sim for. that is BIG problem period.
    car not punishing enough for bad setup , abusive driving is NOT correct.
     
  12. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    We actually discussed it in private and I perfectly understood (I already knew it by the way, I had just asked if it was the plugin that forced it to 0 or if it came from rF2 directly) that taking in reference 0 or 1 was not a problem as long as it was taken into account in the code...and that's precisely where the question comes up because absolutely nothing proves that it is indeed taken into account in ALL the code...and that's why I want to check.

    Let's understand each other well, although language is obviously an obstacle: I agree with you on almost everything you developed in your answer and I'm not implying that there is an error in the code, I'm just saying that such an error in a function is not impossible, I've never read the code (and I guess you haven't either) but I know from experience that it can happen.

    Having said that, I strongly doubt it, I only made this hypothesis to invalidate it because I am sure that there is no problem of "car too light", at least nothing alarming. But as I'm curious, I wanted to prepare my tests and it starts by already having the right formulas to analyze the telemetric data.

    I think that I have largely shown that I'm not one of those who see problems everywhere, I'm even at the point of thinking that the famous problems you're talking about may not even come directly from the game or its physics, but from the settings of our equipment for example, or simply from our deformation coming from another game that would have taught us bad things.

    In any case, I don't see any good objective reason to come and reproach myself for looking for an answer to this question.
     
  13. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    Interestingly, I've dealt with some friends who jumped into rf2 for the first time. What was funny is that most of them after I told them that you could drive the car that way, said that it wasn't quicker for them and added back for example the 1 rear arb. Last weekend I drove the gt3e race on Portland with my teammate, we decided on using rear arb since it was simply quicker and more stable for both of us. We got our best q and best race result that race.

    Rf2 simply isn't as broken as some people think. Although I'd be in first row if s397 would ask what could be improved.
     
  14. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    I guess not everyone is the same and for some people it probably won't make any difference but in order to find the truth, the distinction has to be made, that who doesn't care is irrelevant in the end, for those who want to know it's important and to know if a concern comes from the game as a whole or just from a car or even just tires seems fundamental to me in the end.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2021
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  15. Havner

    Havner Registered

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    This is completely not about ARB. You must've not followed this thread.

    I agree it's important. I'm not saying not to differentiate. It's just that @Lazza goes nuclear when someone at least suggests that something is wrong with the core RF2 without giving a definitive 100% reproducible and objective proof.
     
  16. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    It's part of it, bit you probably didn't see all the threads
     
  17. Havner

    Havner Registered

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    I follow all 3. This is about driving style that aliens can use. Overdriving the wheel, getting additional grip that shouldn't be there.
     
  18. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    I think @Lazza actually blames me for "giving grain to grind" to those who want to criticize, it's going to give them an easy and practical new angle of attack...and contradicting their arguments will take much more time than it took them to come up with that argument...and I think it saturates a bit with all these endless discussions.

    It must be admitted that some people use the rhetorical strategy of the "thousand sheets", basically we give a lot of arguments that have no thickness but are long to contradict, the quantity gives the impression that nothing is right when in fact, by taking the time to study each argument, none of them really holds up, but to get there, it takes time.

    It so happens that in this case the argument has already come out ...
     
  19. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    Then you should know one of the biggest exploits to get that driving style is detaching the rear arb. But as I said it's not as powerful as people think. It's not the reason someone is the quickest. Just look at the fastest hotlap in the formula e accelerate. It is smooth af without the sliding and stuff. And that is in a hotlap, where it's pretty much the only place those exploitive way of driving works due to tire wear
     
  20. Havner

    Havner Registered

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    If he still blames you, even though you are right I think this shows his issue right here.

    Exactly, rear ARB was shown by Ermin and it has been shown in those threads long ago that it is not as powerful. That's why I'm saying that the biggest issue is not ARB. So showing this to new people like it's the biggest issue is not really relevant to what I was saying.
    And the biggest exploit to get this driving style are actually low tire pressures, not ARB.

    I'm not driving formula E, the issues I follow the most and that are of most interest to me are Endurance. And the biggest issues has been shown on those cars. Formula E recently received physics update (I know you did test them). Maybe they are better now. I don't know, don't care much about them.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2021

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