Poll: Is this driving realistic?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Nieubermesch, Jan 23, 2021.

?

Is this driving realistic?

  1. Yes

    31.6%
  2. No

    68.4%
  1. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    *EDIT*



    Adding a video of cars being saved posted and suggested by Yzangard.
    Note that to me, those saves are not really a good way of determining how forgiving or savable a car can be, as those instances are not the thing being shown on my shared videos. Even then, let it stand and watch for yourselves, but be careful of not confusing the two things.

    *CLOSE EDIT*

    I am creating this poll hoping as many people as possible participate on this forum. Not everybody will probably be able to reply correctly to this, as it needs some experience and observation of what's possible when driving this type of race car (or any car really).

    Poll is up and discussions are welcomed, but I would guess the thread about physics being broken is good to post your thoughts after watching this and the video over there, probably reading some of the issues pointed there already, although it has become an huge post.

    Try to keep pesonal bias aside. Watch some videos of a car like that before voting if you must, but try to not vote favorely just because it's your favourite sim.

    Thank you.

    New edit



    Leaving this here, as I don't want to be called biased. Alonso driving style looks simillar to what can be seen on the videos above, at least excessive steering input and throwing cars into the corners. The thing is, if you listen carefully, it was achieved with some special setups on the rear and not all tires are able to reproduce this. In Rfactor2 we have more than one car doing this with some setups more than others. It could be happening that suspension wise and such, it's creating this behavior.
    Realize that not all the behaviors in the two videos of Rfactor2 are the same as what Alsono is doing in an F1 car. There is too much controlled oversteer and slip angles with a different behavior not induced by understeer and car regaining grip again. It's important to not only look at it and generalize. Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
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  2. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    "Realistic" is a bit wide term. Does it mean is it absolutely 100% to real life ? Perhaps 50% to real life is still realistic ? I'd have a guess of realism being less than 60% in these videos, I think rF2 is capable of around 90%+. Ofcourse - thats just approximately guesstimated percentage. By guesstimating I become dependant on my real car handling perception, ability to observe and match stuff, of which some is or should be rather subtle. Finally, as you pointed out personal bias comes at play, and it will inevitably have an effect, especially here in home. Somewhere else bias could possibly shift 180degrees.

    To me personally it is realistic, but is it realistic enough ? Not enough to me, I need at least 85% (individual, purelly guesstimated and loose figure of course). To me cars in these video examples appears not to be holding up to tarmac firmly and steady enough, and has overturning and underturning that appears on the lazy side. It appears that these cars slide a bit much, but not breaking controlability or pace, maybe even helping to improve pace. Thats not how I personally observe cars like these driving on the limit IRL.
     
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  3. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    Another thread about the same thing by the same people of the other threads... Of course already the " Not everybody will probably be able to reply correctly to this" because you of course decide what other people need to have an opinion. To be fair, at least you are not saying they aren't allowed to comment like Slip did.
     
  4. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    @Remco Majoor To be honest, from what I have obesrved so far, it is you guys, usual discord suspects, who start getting quite dramatic and/or loose subject technicality as discussions aren't going easy. The whole point of these discussion is to present opposing opinions and then judge who has best evidence and logic to back up their ideas. Getting dramatic will get us nowhere.
     
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  5. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    Well, the premise of the poll is not encouraging: if you want to vote yes, be sure to check your morality before, because you are probably wrong .
     
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  6. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    I can't speak for others, but me myself gave views from a different perspective. In the end it wasn't me that was saying that someone wasn't allowed to comment because he didn't think the same way as me. It wasn't me that said something along the lines of "if you don't think A you don't want a simulator/are dumb".

    There is this general snobby attitude amongst people in simulator communities when it's about physics. This is very apparent in the flight sim community, and as seen in the other physics threads also here.

    to add: The discussions here are just trying to convince each other of that one is right, which just is an endless loop
     
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  7. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    Do you think this is realistic ? :



    Do exactly the same thing in a video with rFactor 2 and create a poll to see if people think it's realistic, you'll see that we'll have a bunch of experts in different fields of physics coming to explain that it's not at all realistic...yet they did it, for real.

    The videos shown show no consequences, no setup (software or hardware) and do not give the impression of a great mastery, not to mention the fact that time is probably wasted compared to a cleaner technique...

    Basically, this poll is biased.


    PS : I didn't even watched the video, I just search for "crazy racecar saves" on youtube and got this one, you can watch any other, exact same results.
     
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  8. Navigator

    Navigator Registered

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    Well, I voted "yes".
    Why, and how am I able to judge? Well, you can't really..... One would have to have experience with the real car and then drive this one yourself in a pretty good simulator.
    Even than; you can't really judge correctly. In this case; it is watching a movie.......and no laps in the real thing.

    So judging this, for me, is looking at how the car goes/behaves and compare it to footage from real onboard.
    This way, it seems to me, it's pretty okay, isn't it?

    And on the other hand; its just my opinion.
     
  9. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    I have problems with posts like that.
    What are the consequences if theoretically 90% of people vote no? Would you ask developer to change their product to suit user preferences? How can a developer of a product he define a simulator could ever do that?
    There is always room for improvements , surely, but simulation science is not about democracy is about reality , but even if it was, this look more populism than democracy.
    I'm a simple man, I like it, I play it, I dislike it, I don't play it. I like RF2 , I play RF2. Do I like all the cars and tracks? Off course not, I simply don't play the content I don't like. For my purpose RF2 is more than good, if the developer will be able to improve it, kudos to them, if not, I will stick with what I have until I'll be fine with it.
     
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  10. ATQ

    ATQ Registered

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    Difficult to see what's going on with the Oreca, but the Corvete looks pretty spot on.

    Short on-board cuts show very similar inputs and behavior here:
     
  11. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    What's the point of such a poll anyway? Not because 10,000,000 people say something stupid that it's not stupid anymore?

    This kind of poll also provokes false rumors about a simulation, it's enough for a youtuber to make a video in which he doesn't understand at all what's going on, to affirm that in reality things don't happen that way and his viewers (who obviously have no notion either) will spread this rumor.

    How many times have we read crazy things like rFactor 2 is too easy, iRacing is harder so iRacing is more realistic because driving a race car is not easy? Is iRacing harder? Yes...clearly...does "harder" mean "more realistic"? No, absolutely not...but it doesn't matter, it just needs to be rumored to become factual.

    A poll like this one is misleading as soon as it's presented, I posted a video of incredible saves, it should be added to the initial poll so that people have an idea of what can happen in real life, not just something vaguely abusive that provokes a reaction when in the end, there's nothing really crazy in it, just bad driving that didn't kill the car in 2 laps...
     
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  12. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    True the OP has displayed his side of view, but it does not make the poll biased because the OP asked voter not to be biased lol

    The problem I see is all the time the same. Instead of examining the pure evidence and using logic, it all goes to some morality standards of "who you are to not believe this", "who you are to even propose criticism".

    These are awesome examples to observe. I have created two satirical threads before. One was mocking reality of being too hard. Another was mocking reality being too easy. No one cared. No one is interested to really going deep and getting most of the evidence from the countless footage examples that couldn't be more straight than it is. It can be seen in the videos how dramatic the moments were, we know the level of these drivers, we can see what was the outcome for their pace from these big scary moments.... yet we need to have logic to simply notice these evidences. And you even state yourself that you didn't even watch it, perhaps you aren't even that interested in reality, but rather simulation alone independently from it, like a lot of simracers are, unfortunately.

    It is terribly alarming to see how simracers are so incompetent to simply just look at visual evidence from RL and just look at how much on the rails the particular cars should be, and how much of a deal loosing these rails is for these cars. It is simply just a matter of looking closely, knowing what to look at.

    And we aren't even at arguments of little mismatches that would require precise data and telemetry analysis, the driving differences are fundamental and easily observable.

    Just like in example with Audi spin which I have attempted to explain to you, the same with this particular video, you seem to have absent mind in terms of judging what is simply seen happening. We can see drivers spinning out, barely collecting their cars together and staying on track, or going off but staying away from big crashes, and you use that as evidence to explain how forgiving reality car handling is with such big confidence that you even reveal not watching the video ? In my opinion that is just simply a fail.

    This thread went left with third post already.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
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  13. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    I am just going to reply to your same post again, because it is a pleasure.

    You said that video displays no consequences, yet the very firs clip displays massive tankslapper.

    Better watch next time before posting something that is supposed to back you up. Because in this case it did not back you up.
     
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  14. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    I don't think I said to anyone "who are you to know" or anything like that, did I?

    When I said that I didn't even watch the video before posting it, it was to assert the fact that it doesn't matter what's in the video, I know from experience that if what these videos were showing was from rFactor 2 (or another simulation), a lot of people would say that it's not realistic. Basically what I was saying was that you don't even have to watch the video to know what some people would say.

    The example with the Audi? I'm having a hard time following, at what point did I "misanalyze" anything? What exactly are you talking about? In fact more generally, at what point did I say anything inconsistent or without formal proof?

    You don't understand the purpose of my initial answer: I was only asking if the same situations seen in a game would not have provoked a wave of comments saying that this simulation is not realistic, I wasn't saying that this video proved that the other two in the initial post proved that it was credible...

    In fact I think that you misunderstood everything I tried to express (surely because of my really poor English) so sorry but I don't have an intelligent answer to your comment, I just ask you to reread what I wrote and not to infer anything about what I meant.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
  15. ATQ

    ATQ Registered

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    That's an odd interpretation. On the one hand we have in-game footage with small controlled slides where, presumably, some think it should be impossible or at least lose a lot of time. Now on the other hand we have some footage of real cars unexpectedly catching big slides and drivers managing to sort it out. I'd say that what has been demonstrated is that while these cars are sharp and quickly lose grip beyond a certain point it's still possible to regain control under extreme circumstances. Like, when things unexpectedly go south, as opposed to deliberately and predictably controlling small slides.

    Here's another example by the way:


    So, here's a question to those of you who think the first video is unrealistic: What would you expect to happen in a real car? Losing control, losing time, wearing out the tires...?
     
  16. Flaux

    Flaux Registered

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    Also:

     
  17. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Intend to reply to some direct points towards me and the thread, but some people like Mantasisg already argued what I would probably said about some posts.

    People here posting saves of cars... people, the problem is not if a car is savale or not when it breaks lose, is how that happens and how dangerous it can be, how unpreddictable, how one can just throw the car into a corner and not getting beyond the limit (wich to me should happen in some of those videos).

    It's hard now to go and follow the whole other thread I mentioned, but there we've already discussed that and some people that came from there still are not understanding that important difference.

    By the way, this thread I created to get a poll, it wasn't even to start another discussion here, as I mentioned that maybe going over the other thread could work too, so I am not even trying to duplicate threads, it was just the possibility of doing a poll.

    The best that could come from this post if most people thought it was unrealistic (when I mean unrealistic I don't mean completly off, but some aspects are enough to say it's unrealistic if it can drastically change how one can drive such car), wss a more objective number of people not pleased with that and Studio 397 being incentivised to look into it on their own interests.

    The thing is, I love Rfactor2, specially the tyre model and if there are some dramatic unrealistic behaviors, I would like that fixed and I think everyone thinks the same.
     
  18. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    This is a tottaly pertinent point. While you and me probably voted differently (if you voted), is this same loop I am trying to take out of the equation by having a poll: it will me more apparent how many people actually are on each side and hopefully since it's a quick thing (voting) many people who wouldn't comment will still vote, so I think there is utility to one more thread about this. The loop is certainly the pit we shouldn't fall into, while we argue and developers don't really even take a good look at it, as they'll have people from each side professing a different view with valid points on each side.

    I can respect this, but if the cars studio 397 suffer from this issue generally, I think it would be a great disservice to not pointing that out, even more when competition is at play now... Some of the criticism might be of the purist sim racers, but those are actually the ones moving realism to a greater and greater level, isn't it? The developers should be the first ones to think like that. Saying that, it's not a case of expecting everythin perfectly and not accepting anything less, but some things bugs us and in my case I know the next thing will be to return to some other sims and see how they compare, once again...

    Sorry, but very little is able to be seen on this, not even a full onboard lap is shown, or exterior even.

    Thank you for being such a reasonable person :);) I think all can see I respect different opinions, even of those who might be a bit stingy, but I really like your way of doing and observing things, not really just about the conclusion wich we agree on a lot of the time :D
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
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  19. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Lol, cmon man, you know damn well what your position is and Mantasisg also does, so don't pretend like this is an isolated comment and one can't infer anything from your post...

    Sorry for the double posts, just quickly replying to everything I found important. I'll probably edit it and compact it under one post on my PC, as I am mostly replying with my phone and isn't as easy to do.

    Edited:
    Ok, it's better now.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
  20. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    I am sorry, man. You were right. I agree with you that if whatever will happen in simulation, then there will always be opinion from somewhere that it should not have been so. And thats why it is important and healthy for us to have views from both sides. I would also say that if these two vidoes frm OP would resemble stuff from that video you got there, then I would be on the defending side haha

    Abd sorry again for missing your point, I think text comprehension is probably more complex than comprehend cars handling, lol seriously

    True, these are evidences that it is not impossible to catch high performance cars when getting them over the limit too much. But there are some things worth noticing. Like how much the slides lasts, how much the slides seems to cut the car "flow". These slides does compromise the pace quite a lot. And performed while in order to pass, not to get better pace. Also worth noticing that these drivers are "pretty good". One more very interesting thing to look at is how much of "a pulse" these slides are, in most cases they are short lasting and either car is straight again, or the cars is spun, it is rare that they would slide a long way, let alone be part of usual driving technique. Kimi did really smooth made it look very easy, but Massa did visibly fight the car as well as his opponent.

    There are way more "arcade" saved from RL, that could get easily blamed being unrealistic IRL, but they all are really killing the momentum of the car, slowign them down a lot, and definitely really scary for the drivers, and definitely takes all their skill...

    Like this:


    And sometimes even all of their skill is not enough:


    Of course these are F1 cars. OP is about bit different cars, but they wouldn't be critically different.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
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