please ISI more vintage

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by jjcook, Aug 28, 2014.

  1. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Jamie, just look at the very, very first turn (the initial left) in your video. The car just goes right into it and you have like 3 degrees of steering lock on. The car just turns on it's own, yet the rear isn't really swinging around like a pendulum either. To make matters worse, the car can behave like that even when not being pushed. I've noticed this trait, here and there, in quite a few cars in ISI engine based sims over the years. The only way to seem to get rid of it is to purposely put a crapload of understeer into the car either by setup or by just physically turning the wheel too much and inducing understeer that way.



    - Watch the quick-ish, on power left hander at 0:50 , and for a different style corner the right hander at 0:37 (the left hander is a better example because it's quicker and he is on the power) - the car needs to be steered, you need to turn the tyres.
    - Also (different issue) the quick right hander at 1:30, you can see that the rear is getting very iffy from the corner entry to the apex, he needs to hesitate and stop on his applying of more lock into the corner and then add more again, a few times, because of the rear getting "squirly", he his making many mini-corrections on his turn-in , however the corrections are direct, the car is not flopping around as if it's chassis is made out of an elastic band or as if the car has been setup to behave like, literally, a modern purpose built drift car.

    The car is very low grip, very sketchy and willing to slide, as it should be and as is the rF2 variant, however the real-life one is direct in it slides, it's not flopping around, the corrections and mini-slides can be quickly and directly corrected and taken care of rather than being so "slidey" and drifty as if the car is floating on a pillow of air and the tyres are hardly touching the ground.


    Now I haven't done much with the rF2 version in terms of setup. Other than giving it a slower rack, it was just the stock setup. I know sometimes ISI setups aren't the best, but even for a bad setup, it just seems very wrong physics/tyre behaving wise especially considering the behavior occurring even while going very slowly, even while only giving tiny amounts of steering, brake, or throttle application. Maybe the stock setup is so absolutely horrendous that it would lead one to think that the problem is with physics rather than setup, but that would have to be the mother of all bad setups.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 1, 2014
  2. Ronnie

    Ronnie Registered

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    Did you take into account what tyres is he using? Driving a historic car doesn't automatically mean driving with historic tyres.
     
  3. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    It's general behavior that I've noticed with many cars in ISI based engines over a 7 or 8 period.
     
  4. buddhatree

    buddhatree Registered

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  5. Tony

    Tony Registered

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    We've all got our own opinions on handling & physics, & I'm with Spinelli on this one; it's just too loose for me

    Anyway Jamie I watched your vid & am well impressed - you should be driving a BTCC car ..I couldn't get the G4 round Old Spa at half that speed!

    nb. If this car also eventually receives an overhaul by the ISI dev guys, maybe the cockpit could be freshened up a little to look more like the dark one in the Silverstone Classic vid? :)
     
  6. baked bean

    baked bean Registered

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  7. Jyyka Pihtari

    Jyyka Pihtari Registered

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    Reading about Lola T70, one thing that gets mentioned is its excellent directional stability. In rfactor 2 it is a tank slapper, like all the vintage, low-downforce cars. Something is not right.
     
  8. peterchen

    peterchen Registered

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    Mhh, noone seems to realize that we drive the Lola (Howsten) in the sim
    in a completely different way than the guys in Real life, because we don´t have to fear injury or death.
     
  9. Jamie Shorting

    Jamie Shorting Registered

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    Meh, I give up. People will believe what they want to believe. Heck, I even showed motec data to disprove some people here and they still didn't change their mind. :p
     
  10. hexagramme

    hexagramme Registered

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    It just seems some people have an expectation as to how a certain car drives, without ever having driven it.
    Maybe they've read about it, heard about it, whatever.
    When the car in the sim doesn't live up to this expectation:
    BOOM!!! Bad physics, shame on ISI, bad bad simulation developers lol. :rolleyes:

    It's just a matter of being able to adapt to how the car actually handles, all prejudice aside.
    Sure I will listen to (and to some degree bow down to) someone who has actually driven the thing, IRL.
    Anything else is just pretty silly. The Howston handles like it handles. Deal with it, enjoy it, or don't enjoy it and leave it.
    That's just sim racing for ya... It's as close as most of us will ever get.
     
  11. Christian Rosén

    Christian Rosén Registered

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    Spinelli, I really like your technically advanced analysis of sim physics. Therefore I would like to know which simulated car/cars you think is the best of the best physics wise?
     
  12. jjcook

    jjcook Registered

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    haha- :rolleyes:

    useless debate about the howstens aka T70.........

    ....all the historics are due for an update ....please dont come back and say they 'noobed' it when the handling improves-

    take your pick of things from this list that have not been done to historics yet :

    Adk Gallery

    Re: NISSAN GTR/370Z, CHEVY CAMARO/CORVETTE C6.R UPDATED!
    « Reply #4 on: August 18, 2014, 09:28:01 pm »

    Quote
    Modify
    Remove

    -the cars are very different now- more controllable- the only one i havent tried yet is the 370z- i really hope they improve the historics like this - soooooon

    Nissan GT-R GT1 v 1.47
    - Chassis flex implemented and new steering parameters.
    - CG increased.
    - Downforce reduction and slightly less yaw stable.
    - Slightly less downforce sensitive in slip-stream.
    - Updated to use new tyre mass method and slightly more accurate unsprung masses used.
    - Some tyre tweaks, mostly, but not limited to wear, load sensitivity as well as grip correction for wet conditions.
    - Automatic shift aid works a little better (less reluctantly).
    - You now also have to blip on down-shifts as per the real car.
    - Minor AI tweaks.
    - Additional radiator setting to prevent overheating in high ambient temperatures.
    - ‘Central’ TVCockpit / bonnet camera.
    - Tweaked headlight parameters should improve night racing.
    - Now using newer sound attenuation parameters.
    - LOD distance tweaks
    - Updated to latest shader settings
    - New driver helmet
    - Additional teams / liveries added
    - Rim Blur added.
    - *There are additional minor undocumented changes.

    Nissan 370z GT4 v 1.47
    - 2 versions now available, European and Dutch, which more closely match rules from specific series.
    - Chassis flex implemented and new steering system.
    - Suspension and steering geometry revisions, that more closely resembles the real car (steering has an increase in ackermann).
    - Caster range reduced.
    - Slightly stronger suspension.
    - CG increased, further forward and more laterally offset.
    - Slight downforce reduction.
    - Slightly less downforce sensitive in slip-stream.
    - Minor setup tweaks.
    - Gear ratios replaced.
    - Brake system completely recalculated.
    - Updated to use new tyre mass method and slightly more accurate unsprung masses used.
    - Some tyre tweaks, mostly, but not limited to wear, load sensitivity as well as grip correction for wet conditions.
    - Minor AI tweaks.
    - ‘Central’ TVCockpit / bonnet camera.
    - Tweaked headlight parameters should improve night racing.
    - Now using newer sound attenuation parameters.
    - Updated to latest shader settings
    - New driver helmet
    - Rim blur added.
    - New team liveries added.
    - Fixed reversed / mirrored logo on the side.
    - Fixed wheel shadow height.
    - *As usual there are some small additional undocumented changes.
    - **Previous setups will likely be obsolete, but the car should no longer have major revisions in the future as data is more complete.

    Chevrolet Camaro GT3 v 1.49
    - CG raised
    - Minor setup tweak
    - Updated to use new tyre mass method and slightly more accurate unsprung masses used.
    - Some tyre tweaks, mostly, but not limited to wear, load sensitivity as well as grip correction for wet conditions.
    - Slight downforce reduction and drag increased.
    - Minor AI tweaks.
    - Small engine torque correction.
    - Slight increase in shift duration, ignition cuts more correctly on upshifts also.
    - Slight damage tweak (suspension a tiny bit stronger).
    - Wheel / brake shadowing issue resolved
    - Updated to latest shader settings
    - New driver helmet

    Chevrolet Corvette C6.R GT2 v 1.49
    - Weight distribution adjusted.
    - Force upshift ignition cut.
    - More accurate steering range and lock including new variable steering ratio system.
    - Updated to use new tyre mass method and slightly more accurate unsprung masses used.
    - Slight geometry tweak.
    - Some tyre tweaks, mostly, but not limited to wear, load sensitivity as well as grip correction for wet conditions.
    - 2009 & 2010 spec engines available.
    - Reduction in overall downforce level and slight increase in yaw sensitivity.
    - Small AI tweaks.
    - Slight damage tweak.
    - Updated shader settings
    - Fixed the rear diffuser shape
    - Now using latest driver helmet
    - Rim blur was added
    - *There are additional small undocumented fixes not noted in logs
     
  13. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Registered

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    Just an FYI that the "lowest" model is actually the most powerful and worst wheels/tires of any of the variants. It is the hardest to drive/control. Not sure why ISI made it the default, other than they have a tendency to do things like that ;)

    Based on your comments about karts, I think you should also check your controller settings. Shouldn't have to adjust the default lock on anything ISI. PM me if you want to discuss further.
     
  14. Jyyka Pihtari

    Jyyka Pihtari Registered

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    And some clueless people with no idea how the vintage cars did perform in real life think that their ****eness is OK, because it's a sim and none of us has driven them in real life, lol.
     
  15. GTClub_wajdi

    GTClub_wajdi Registered

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    more modern gt cars please!
     
  16. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    The only problem with howstons is that default setup has a sloppy differential lock, as soon as you give it a decent amount of lock, it start to be a perfectly raceable and predictable car that can be driven around the track like it would be expected from such kind of car. The difference is day and night : with a loose differential this car is undrivable for me.
     
  17. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    You can apply like 5 degrees of steering lock on the entry to a corner and the rear wants to start slipping and sliding around, I hope this is just due to a sloppy differential setting (diff coast/off-throttle setting). I will test soon.
     
  18. P.S.R.

    P.S.R. Registered

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    Just a suggestion but if this thread is about motivating ISI to do more historic vehicles perhaps we should be less critical. There is another looooooooooong thread with plenty of criticisms. Why not make this one about how historic vehicles are the best vehicles.
     
  19. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    The classic open wheel cars are amazing to drive. I wish somebody set up a multiclass server with the classic F3s, F2s, and F1s, that would be so cool. Imagine a field of 30 (or more) cars - 10 F3, 10 F2, 10 F1 - with each class consisting of 5 Eves and 5 Sparks. I'm drooling.
     
  20. hexagramme

    hexagramme Registered

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    About the only intelligent and constructive thing I've heard all day.
    THANK you. :)
     

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