please ISI more vintage

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by jjcook, Aug 28, 2014.

  1. deak1944

    deak1944 Guest

    +1!
     
  2. Jamie Shorting

    Jamie Shorting Registered

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    I thought historx said they weren't using rf2. :confused:
     
  3. P.S.R.

    P.S.R. Registered

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    They are evaluating whether to build for AC or rF2.
     
  4. P.S.R.

    P.S.R. Registered

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    Here is a comment from one member (on behalf of himself only) in thread from VirtualR on the subject:

    Rantam Ghoults • a month ago
    Check Gonzalo Rodriguez Sastre's (AKA "Gonzas") posts here (there're three):

    http://www.virtualr.net/histor...

    I think these posts summarizes more or less our general feeling (don't forget he's basically giving his personal oppinion though).

    My personal oppinion: I love rF2, Assetto Corsa and (ta da!) Project CARS (no need to talk about older sims). I consider all of them good sims, play all of them regularly and I like the different approaches they have. I think that makes the current simracing scene more exciting than (almost) ever.

    Now, regarding modding I see both pros and cons for doing that on rF2. And the same goes for AC. But I'd rather focus on rF2 than AC. Despite its apparent slow development I think it's the one with biggest potential.

    Please note also that despite I'd love to mod for both games I think that will hardly happen. Considering the kind of projects we like to create and our resources I don't think we could reach the level of quality we want unless we just focus on one sim. I prefer doing one good mod for a single platform than an average one released for two.

    But again, read all that carefully. I'm talking by myself now, not on behalf of HistorX as a team ;)

    Regards
     
  5. P.S.R.

    P.S.R. Registered

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    Darnit that link above does not go to the right place I don't think. There is another more detailed statement but I can't find it :(. If anyone else knows where to find it please link us to it.
     
  6. Jamie Shorting

    Jamie Shorting Registered

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    Ah yes, they are the Lebron James of sim racing. I forgot about their crusades.
     
  7. Woodee

    Woodee Registered

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    I thought Lola went bust before they could use the licence which was now "worthless". Looking forward to the Eagle getting completed and maybe one other historic track if it is in the works.
     
  8. Tony

    Tony Registered

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    Yep ISI, an overhaul of the Eves & Sparks please - like you've done with the very cool FR 3.5 2014.. You're the Kings of the Historic content, & we seem to have a few people requesting more ..it was the golden-age :D

    Oh, & have I mentioned the fast/hugely atmospheric/sweeping/undulating/around-the-dunes Old Zandvoort? ..ok ok I know I've asked for it already :eek:
     
  9. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Before a classic open wheel update, the Howston desperately need an update; I'm not sure about all of them but I drove the "lowest" model G4 (67 Mk3) yesterday and it was absolutely atrocious to drive. Embarrassing in terms of physics, absolutely terrible. It highlights many areas, badly, of typical ISI physics/tyre engine issues.
     
  10. hexagramme

    hexagramme Registered

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    I just got back into those cars yesterday for the first time in a long while. I find the Howston one of the very best cars to drive in all of the sims I own. :)

    Well, to each his own. :)

    Sendt fra min LG-E400 med Tapatalk2
     
  11. Jamie Shorting

    Jamie Shorting Registered

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    +1 Howstons are awesome. I don't expect a car like that to drive like a '14 Porsche 911.
     
  12. Guy Moulton

    Guy Moulton Registered

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    At least the Howston has an attempt at a clutch. It's a start and it does forced you to use the clutch every now and again. I just hope there's more development of the manual clutch and it is retroactively applied to the WCR60's mod. I do love those F3 cars, it just ruins it for me when I can work the pedals of it exactly the same as a 2012 Vette
     
  13. Woodee

    Woodee Registered

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    Yeah.... "can't drive it" = "physics are bad" hahahahaha
     
  14. P.S.R.

    P.S.R. Registered

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    Terrible how? Care to elaborate?
     
  15. peterchen

    peterchen Registered

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    Issues?? Typical ISI physic issues??? WTF?
    What issues should that be??
    You better drive modern things I think...
     
  16. c.pucher

    c.pucher Registered

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    To be fair, the Howston can give this impression. Took me some while to get a hang on the car and doing laps felt quite slow at the beginning :) At least a lot slower than they were ..
    Took way to much speed into the corners to begin with.

    But now the car feels great!


    Did you spend a lot of time in the Howston?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 31, 2014
  17. hexagramme

    hexagramme Registered

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    The number one go-to explanation for some people, I'm afraid. :)

    Sendt fra min LG-E400 med Tapatalk2
     
  18. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    The car requires almost no steering lock to turn. It's like a go kart, even worse. I even tried slowing the steering rack. You can be going way under the limit on a slow outlap yet throughout some turns you literally do not even have to steer the car through them because the dart-iness of the car's front-end combined with the rear constantly swinging around as if it's tyres aren't even in contact with the ground (seems like there's no friction) means that even in slow outlaps you are still driving the car with opposite lock on corner entry or mid corner of some corners. For example - the tunnel at Monaco - I literally drive through it with my wheel almost pointing straight, maybe even turned slightly left, even on very slow laps. Then at the super tight casino hairpin, even at extremely slow speeds, the front tyres start really understeering and sliding bad at way to little of steering lock, also it takes little lock to get around that corner because the tyres don't allow you to "lean" on them even at 30 km/h, they just get into this state of slide and slide way too early, and same with the rear, which therefore allows you to get around so many corners with such little lock because the rear does the same thing, it way too easily starts sliding and sliding. This trait of the rear-end so easily coming around and rotating the car on entry and mid-corner, will therefore allow you to easily get the car turned into the corner, which therefore may make it difficult to realize what I said above about the steering lock and front tyres.

    Also, the rear can want to swing around under braking while barely touching the brake pedal (let's say 10% brake) while literally applying 10 degrees, or so, of steering lock, and this is at slow speees, and well under the limit. Think about that...the rear coming around, trail-braking style, BUT while only applying like 10% brake + hardly touching the wheel (10-ish degrees) + driving very slowly (50 Kp/h or so). That is just wrong, even for 60s technology, 60s tyres, 60s chassis, etc.

    Also, the power spiking on exit with literally almost not even touching the gas. The following may be the issue (or part of it): Many cars in ISI engine based sims (including Game Stock Car) have a major issue that can easily be experienced by anybody. Push the clutch in and try to hold the revs at different RPMs, it's completely messed up. The RPMs will easily skyrocket in the upper 2/3rds of the RPM range, then if you let off the throttle slightly the revs will just drop almost all the way to idle. There's this totally messed up behaviour that seems to be part of the engine physics (engine as in the motor of the vehicle). I'm guessing that this may be the cause of some crazy power spikes even though you are only holding like 10% throttle. Try to modulate the throttle, while stopped, at different RPMs; you can experience it yourself. As a side effect, this can make blipping the throttle on downshifts on some cars very tricky beause even a very quick blip of 50% or so throttle will instantly make the revs rise to almost redline. It's like the revs rise to the top at lightning speed with such little amounts and lengths of throttle presses.

    Then there is the un-directness of catching the slide (this is more car specific). Sometimes on catching on-power slides, you slide and correct one way, then the next, then back the other way, until 3 or 4 wobbles later if you are finally pointed straight again. It's a super slidey, no tyre-to-surface friction, extremely non-directness of car control. Watch many 60s and 70s cars on power, they have low grip and slide VERY easily, yes, HOWEVER there is a directness to the slide, a sense of the tyre re-gripping, rather than acting like a purposely setup drift car that constantly swings left, right, left, right all the way down the straight.

    These issues seemed to have greatly improved, generally speaking, in the rFactor 2 physics engine, but some vehicles are still bad in some or all of these areas and the Howston G4 Mk3 highlights just about all of these traits, and very noticeably as well.

    Further analysing...

    Having the car be too sensitive while using the stock "proper" steering rack. This leads to often needing too little lock when driving around corners, especially when you drive slow and the car should therefore need much more steering lock to get around corners because it's not getting any help from the rear rotating at those lower speeds. It also leads to the car being way too overly snappy and easy to over-correct and snap the other way upon powerslide correction. Even in the karts, I need to raise the amount of wheel rotation from realistic 187 degrees to around 230 or so because something in the physics engine makes the proper amount of steering degrees seem to sensetitive at certain times, even though it's the correct steering ratio "on paper".

    The rear wanting to come around, which helps you turn into the corner and therefore not need as much steering input, happens much too easily. You should have to be pushing a "decent" amount, generally speaking, in order for the rear of a vehicle to want to swing around in order to help rotate the car on turn-in and/or mid-corner. You don't just have that happening on very slow, grocery-getter, sight-seeing outlaps where you are literally just cruising. When you are crusing way under the limit, even bad, old tyres can be leaned on with more than just 10 degrees of steering lock before they start understeering and before the rear wants to start swinging around on corner-entry and mid-corner.

    It's like the car limits start "kicking in" much, much too early, and once you go past them it takes too long for the tyres to regain any sort of friction with the surface. What seems to be required/needed is a bit more tyre scrubbing/"digging" from the friction which naturally slows the vehicle down as it's heavily sliding which helps the tyre regain grip as the vehicle slows down naturally due to the scrubbing of the tyre against the road surface. So then the sliding-and-sliding-on-and-on effect won't seem to last as long, yet the tyres can remain being old, "bad", slippery, low-grip tyres. The scrubbing from the slide should lead to a bit more vehicle speed-loss from the friction-scrub, that friction-scrub would then allow the tyres to act "better" and grippier, more direct, even though they are sliding and out of grip if that makes any sense. This should then lead to the tyre giving a realistic feeling of crappy, old, slippery, low-grip tyres BUT while still being somewhat direct and grippy once you are back inline and under control with them (not in a state of heavy sliding).

    The low amount of total out-and-out grip isn't the problem - that should obviously not really change and therefore remain low since the tyres are old and relatively slippery - it's the behaviour of how that low-grip is expressed where some problems arise.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 31, 2014
  19. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    GT Legends is based on, I believe, even a pre-rFactor 1 based ISI engine. Many people agree that those older engines have inferior FFB feel and control than newer sims, that those older engined sims can be even more snappish and hard to control when pushing, more unforgiving, more "icey", and have more "low-speed" grip issues....Well I'll race you in GTL, with any car and circuit of your choosing, if you think I can't drive... Or I can send you a replay, or make a video...The 60s GT cars generally have the biggest gap between how much power they make and how little grip they have, and therefore may be the trickiest and most difficult to drive, since you think I can't drive.

    Or you probably don't care lol, but I take simracing seriously and I don't want people to not at least even consider my opinions/what I have to say because they think I'm some super slow driver who complains because I can't drive.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 31, 2014
  20. Jamie Shorting

    Jamie Shorting Registered

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    lower the steering lock. Other than that it sounds like you're expecting it to drive like a modern prototype.

    I'm not a fast guy but if I can drive this thing, you can too. This is a lap of mine at spa, only had the car a day or two.


     

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