Why do you need to have driven a race car to know what a street car handles like............. all sims have them ? Then I guess you must base what is real on people that have driven real race cars. Then, do they all say sim "X" is best ? No
Well I'm not sayin that I don't see what's so special about rFactor 2 - that I can. I can sense the physics differences between something in the rF2 engine and let's say GSC or AC (or whatever). But it, like every sim, has certain areas of it's physics which haven't really changed despite years of tyre model updates and even new tyre models. This tells me that other areas of the physics engine needs to be looked at besides the tyre model. RF2 is light years ahead of, say, F1 Ch 99-02, yet there are still certain moments where the car displays almost the exact same characteristics. Driver's Republic really was onto something special. It had the very sensitive and touchy slips and slides that happen when really pushing a car, that raw, touchy, aliveness that real-life exhibits (and RF2), but at the same time you can use the grip without feeling icy. The cars also never exhibited any unnatural pivoting. The slides felt like the mass of the rear was swinging around rather than the front-end darting around the track and finding yourself halfway across the track once you correct your slide. Correcting the slide always felt natural, you never had to give the car 2 or 3 separate corrections as if you couldn't perfectly judge the moment the car gripped back in-line. It was alive, touchy, sensitive and required lots of concentration to keep the car under control like a real Skippy/F1600/F2000 but the slips and slides happened naturally.
Sadly GTA5 just don't cut it. I would like a NFS/ Driver/ MCO type sim with ISI engine. I could very well give up race cars altogether.
Maybe i should have said that i haven't driven a car on a track. So i don't really know how car behaves and feels like when driving on and over the limit. Haven't really seen videos or writings about race driver's opinions about racing sims. It's almost 6.00 am now here in finland --> zzZZZ...
The thing is when you drive a car at any speed the gforce or any feedback you get, is i would say about 80% through your body the rest is through your arms. A game or sim, is trying to get all its feedback and forces into a ffb wheel. It will never feel realistic, if it feels authentic to you is the main thing. Yes there is a difference between say NFS and AC. But comparing how one dev does a sim to another, its all personal perception. i personally think a well modded/adjusted Pcars will be a better sim than rf2.. I would like to see a rf2 where things like rain effects, racing in wet etc etc are fixed, and so doesnt all feel FUBAR. I would like to see any progress on NEW content stopped on rf2 and complete all content within it already. Then go gold then release new tracks cars features not in the game already. but thats imo.
Just so you know, it will be very different. The adrenaline, excitement and gforces can't ever be replicated. The impact of those factors can't be underestimated. I remember my first real on-track experience having only ever driven on iracing at the time. My thoughts were; WOW there is so much grip! Crap those tyre barriers are close, I don't want to bin it! ARGGH I've got cramp Lol
lol yeah rich My first time in a open wheeler... ive done rally and track cars...and road many years ago i bought an Rx8, mazda with my purchase gave me a free track day with prodrive. This involved a racing driver taking me out in my car and showing what it can do on track then being taught how to drive it the same.. i was amazed how much a road version of a sports car had so much grip…..!!! So sims with lacking grip, your doing it wrong !
The problem is it doesn't matter how grippy the tyres are... if you go fast enough you run out of grip. People drive a real car below the limit and think it has 'loads of grip', they watch race drivers (especially from normal camera views) and the cars look glued to the road... but it's just the drivers keeping things mostly within the limits. Jump in a game/sim where you have no fear, and a bit less feel, and you go too fast and run out of grip like you would in real life. But even watching real race cars that look so stable, if you concentrate on the wheel when there's a cockpit view you can see the driver correcting little slides all over the place. Watch a few hours of real racing and you'll see a few spins at quite low speed, often with the car just coming to a lame stop against an inside wall after getting the back end out under power and not being able to catch it. Even with drivers paid to drive. The exact same thing in a game/sim is called unrealistic, but it happens in real life. No sim will ever be perfect, and maybe they all have their little flaws, but it's always overblown. Especially by people who overestimate their ability and their knowledge of how things 'should be', and have little understanding of what a sim is. Though to be fair I doubt we get many of those people here.
+111 Agree on everything except one thing. It should be a TON less feel, not a "bit" less feel PCars is great game, but I feel the opposite to you: I find PCars to be nowhere near the overall handling dynamics of RF2 or even GSC. I don't think PCars' driving dynamics are on the same sim-level as the current top sims. Even in the rain it's pretty dumbed-down feeling. You can spin out and stuff, obviously, but in-between control and loosing it, I find it stale and maybe even a little dumbed-down. The dynamics seem pretty basic. I was quite disappointed with PCars just a couple weeks ago when I tried a 70s F1 car and a DTM-type car in thunderstorm rain conditions; the car's "senses" and reactions seemed quite straightforward and simplified rather than behind in hyper-mode with all sorts of balance and grip changes and corrections and all sorts of little throttle/brake/steering inputs having minute but noticeable effects on the car's dynamics. It felt lifeless and...I don't know....linear? Constant? I don't know the right word, but it definitely didn't seem like the driving dynamics had much depth to them. The vehicle dynamics depth and fidelity just seems severely lacking compared to something like rFactor 2. It personally seems more like a "fairly realistic videogame" than an "industrial simulation software".
It's more of an overall thing for me rather than a particular car thing, having said that, yes, some cars are a little better. It's a different kind of "aren't that great" though. The cars in RF2 with some stand-out physics issues are still exhibiting a raw, deep, and highly fidelic experience; it's just that they also happen to sometimes do some not so nice things.
Yeah I knew what you meant. Seen a few videos of real racers in sims but most are promos. Shane Van Gisbergen from V8 is a promient iRacer http://www.iracing.com/iracing-2-update-with-shane-van-gisbergen/ Funny one I thought was RBR review by 2 Rally drivers, one of the complaints was not feeling and variation between garage changes. I thought to myself, did anyone tell them it had a solid rear axle. lol ----------- The other half to physics and tyres for me is tracks, good terrain is few and far between. The amount of detail in rF2 Belgium and Italy road surface compared to the now DLC relegated ? pCARS Belgium and Assetto Corsa's Monza is just staggering to me. Italy and Belgium in a Historic just shakes me to pieces, you can feel the ruts and dips and curvature which in turn gets the physics working. Both AC and pCARS to me feel flatter and uninspiring no matter the car or where you drive on the track, which in turns makes the cars feel less then they are . It is no different in rF2 certain tracks can make a F3 feel simply horrible. Is iRacing good bumpy terrain ? from most videos I see seems rather tame ?
Yep. If there was perfectly realistic sim, it would be like driving real car with a radio controller steering wheel that reproduces perfectly the forces from real steering wheel. And to screen you get video recorded by in-car camera with 0 delay. I think that would still be very different from really driving the car. Sensing the speed of the car would be more difficult so you might drive too fast, and not feeling the g-forces or feedback coming from the seat your throttle and other inputs might get less accurate. Driving the car like that makes it easier to go on and over the limit and might make the car feel more loose than what it would feel if you was doing the driving from inside the car.
Dirge thats a very good and valid point , the tracks (in the buildi played) were very flat, not much feedback from the road in pcars. In rf2 and gsc you can even feel the type of tarmac change thru the ffb. but as we both aid some bad some good. Regarding realism, i think all gmotor sims, have trouble with low end grip, its been noted many a times on various sites etc. Suppose for me with pcars it was refreshing to try a new tyre model/physics engine, than one thats just been rehashed through different devs. RRe/gsce/rf2 etc and therefore share same issues. Pcars seta tyre model does boast a lot of dynamics.... http://www.wmdportal.com/projectnews/inside-project-cars-seta-tire-model/ if they actually work or not..well.
The rest of the handling affecting physics you're complaining about is mostly simple rigid body dynamics, which is in general a solved problem for decades. rF1 and rF2 are already doing it better than other sims on that front, being able to cope with very stiff, high ride frequency cars.
Well, on paper the SETA model surely seems impressive. I'm curious to try it to see (feel rather) where it stacks up. To the WMD/early access members: how do the tires feel like in pCARS?
The tires are good and the FFB can be good but in some cars the feel gets lost when the tires seem to aquaplane in dry surface for a split moment. I don't know what msportdan is talking about being flat, the FFB is there and you can feel the road but it's ever so subtle. I have just requested a refund and it went through so I am no longer in, however their refund practices aren't true refunds so I may be reinstated as a member soon although I will not bother downloading it again. It will be a fun career racer but it feels like a simulator with a few assists turned on regardless of settings. The tires did seem very good, I think once it's out the community may unlock the game's potential like they did with the first Shift.
ill try to explain what I noticed. On my build 834 (yes im buying it) and yes lots been updated since gold. The tyres feel quite real I think, if one thing ill say, they do sound like your on underinflated tyres but don't feel like it. Theyre harder to warm up (again probs early build) and you can lose control if your totally sluggish at driving. All the cars feel very different and I expect true to their real life versions. I compared the URD merc DTM car to the exact same car in PCARS at Silverstone. and the first lap (cold tyres, same driving style)) I spun out on the "the loop" corner in the URD cars, under throttle. I gave the same amount of throttle about 50-70% and the URD cars swapped ends. I know the URD cars isn't the ideal showcase of RF2 physics, just tyring to put in perspective. You can be a little lazy on the throttle in PCARS and survive.. having said that its still a great distraction from RF2 or any other hardcore sim. the weather is the best in a sim yet,!! But since this is mass market I think they have made a great balance of sim vs game. UPDATE actually in fairness to pcars I went out on a green track in rf2 hence the grip loss. Tried again with a med rubbered track and felt very similar to pcars lol
Another aspect is that you feel the grip in a real car and in a sim you don't-- except a little bit through the wheel. So in a sim you run out of grip before you feel it and in real life it is the opposite. I too have been on track with a professional driver (Boris Said) and you feel the sensation of huge grip and forces quite strongly. More strongly than when you are driving yourself because of being the passenger and... because he is driving the **** out of the car!
Nobody needs to drive a real racing car to know the basics. Any +15 hp kart using slick tyres can inform you exactly how the things should go. There're no such many situations. You may be neutral, resting your body and brain on the straights... otherwise either you're understeering or oversteering. Principles are always the same. The power/weight kart ratio is not that far of a racing car. As said before, daily driving is not a good premise since you can't go to the tyres limit (even so commercial road tyres are pure crap for it) and you have the traffic rules to respect. No fun and no way. Excluding the G-Force, what the rF2 cars delivers is quite believable to me. I would point just one fact: when you're racing and starts to understeer, the steering wheel indeed gets less heavier, but some rF2 cars simulate it in a overdone way, at the point when you have to manually counter-steer the wheel back instead of tyre force do it for you at corners apex and exit. It's more evident in Formula 2 cars. That's not right. Aside that, it's best car dynamics simulation I've ever tried.
