[REL] [Open Beta v0.9] International Formula Series 3

Hi Petros,

Thanks for this mod, I spent a bit of time today testing it at Mores with my T500 F1 wheel. A quick bit of feedback as requested:

Model quality is superb, if I was being picky I would request more polys on the two humps immediately above the dash when viewed from the drivers cockpit. I think the 2 humps probably cover the suspension, but because they sit right in the eye line, all the reflections off the two humps add to the immersion, I noticed a few times driving Mores that I could see the squared edges of the mesh of the humps in the reflection, ie the reflection was not a smooth curve but was made up of squares. Picky I know...

Driving physics under acceleration feels good, very similar to the F3 car I have driven, I especially like that the low speed rear grip is not ice like in the ISI F3.5, corner exits can be well controlled with throttle.

For the braking I feel that the brakes are too forgiving. I found it very hard to lock the brakes, even with very cold tires on a green track I had to really stomp the brake pedal to maximum to get the wheels to lock. Comparing to the ISI F3.5 I feel that the ISI car is closer to real life.

Regarding the force feedback, I too feel the same issue with others in that I cannot really feel what the front end is doing. Going over some of the curbs at Mores I could feel the ripple strip but general the feedback is not great. I ended up turning the smoothing up from 2 to 4 then up again and also played with the multiplier. Normally I use a multiplier of 0.6 but with this mod I was down to 0.4. The main issue is that the FF seems to be too spikey, the sensation I feel is lots of pulsing in the wheel as if the front tyres are sliding then biting then skipping then sliding then biting then skipping etc over and over in a fast loop when an understeer condition is occurring. What I would expect to feel as the vehicle corners is the load on the wheel to increase until the maximum slip angle is reached at which point the load on the wheel should drop away so that you can feel that the front has passed it's maximum load. What I actually feel is the load rising then pulsing through the wheel. I have not had a look at the data yet and my explanation is a bit rubbish but let me know if you need more detail.

I noticed a few small graphics bugs which could be rF2 or my settings, the rear rain light flickers from light grey to dark grey which is a bit annoying when following another car closely. Testing the car at a third party track (Spa conversion) the tyre sidewalls are shown in a weird red texture and the line where the sidewall meets the main slick is missing so you can see the road through the tyre. I suspect that this is just a problem wit the track rather then the mod but I though I would mention it anyway. The last thing I noticed is that you cannot see any of the rear of the car in the side mirrors no matter how you adjust them.

The other thing I noticed is that when selecting the car from the ISI main screen (you know where you can select the cars and the tracks), none of the car images are shown in the spinner, you just see the ISI RF2 logo. Not a bit deal but it makes it hard to select a car livery because you cannot see the livery unless you go into the upgrades section.

Hope these comments have not come across as negative, this is one of my favourite mods, I just wanted to give some feedback as requested.
 
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64r said:
Hi Petros,

Thanks for this mod, I spent a bit of time today testing it at Mores with my T500 F1 wheel. A quick bit of feedback as requested:

Model quality is superb, if I was being picky I would request more polys on the two humps immediately above the dash when viewed from the drivers cockpit. I think the 2 humps probably cover the suspension, but because they sit right in the eye line, all the reflections off the two humps add to the immersion, I noticed a few times driving Mores that I could see the squared edges of the mesh of the humps in the reflection, ie the reflection was not a smooth curve but was made up of squares. Picky I know...
Click to expand...

Yes this model was done back in 2009 for our race team clients and for rF1 so it is considerably less poly than our rF2 models. In addition, team simulators usually just show the suspension and tires and don't show the monocoque area so the quality there was not an issue for them. It is something I plan to have updated as there is an updated higher quality model being made for WRS which we might share with rF2 as we are introducing a lot of our WRS series through rF2. When that will be however I don't know, but will look into making that area of the current model more smooth asap and share that update when we can. Your not picky, its something that has bugged me too. :)

Driving physics under acceleration feels good, very similar to the F3 car I have driven, I especially like that the low speed rear grip is not ice like in the ISI F3.5, corner exits can be well controlled with throttle.

For the braking I feel that the brakes are too forgiving. I found it very hard to lock the brakes, even with very cold tires on a green track I had to really stomp the brake pedal to maximum to get the wheels to lock. Comparing to the ISI F3.5 I feel that the ISI car is closer to real life.
Click to expand...

Yeah basically all the data we used is from what we did with the race team clients who allowed us to use it in the mod also as its an old car and something they don't use today to affect them negatively in data areas. I'll talk to Derek and the F3 engineer we know to see what they both say about your feedback there. Not sure what we'll do but will see what they say. :)

Regarding the force feedback, I too feel the same issue with others in that I cannot really feel what the front end is doing. Going over some of the curbs at Mores I could feel the ripple strip but general the feedback is not great. I ended up turning the smoothing up from 2 to 4 then up again and also played with the multiplier. Normally I use a multiplier of 0.6 but with this mod I was down to 0.4. The main issue is that the FF seems to be too spikey, the sensation I feel is lots of pulsing in the wheel as if the front tyres are sliding then biting then skipping then sliding then biting then skipping etc over and over in a fast loop when an understeer condition is occurring. What I would expect to feel as the vehicle corners is the load on the wheel to increase until the maximum slip angle is reached at which point the load on the wheel should drop away so that you can feel that the front has passed it's maximum load. What I actually feel is the load rising then pulsing through the wheel. I have not had a look at the data yet and my explanation is a bit rubbish but let me know if you need more detail.
Click to expand...

The Force Feedback is an issue and its something we're trying to iron out for all our mods. Its strange because this has started to become an issue in a number of games we're seeing and its a bit of a question mark as to why. I will be contacting some of the people here to join our beta team very soon. I've been very busy during the christmas period and in January so I wasn't able to do so sooner, but would like some of you guys to join in and help out with feedback with all the different peripherals you all use. FFB is something we would like to ensure is more complete and right when we release open beta's in the future.

I noticed a few small graphics bugs which could be rF2 or my settings, the rear rain light flickers from light grey to dark grey which is a bit annoying when following another car closely. Testing the car at a third party track (Spa conversion) the tyre sidewalls are shown in a weird red texture and the line where the sidewall meets the main slick is missing so you can see the road through the tyre. I suspect that this is just a problem wit the track rather then the mod but I though I would mention it anyway. The last thing I noticed is that you cannot see any of the rear of the car in the side mirrors no matter how you adjust them.
Click to expand...

When your using third party tracks, bugs like this become very common because unfortunately, the modding world has not yet learned how to prefix their material names with a unique code as to not conflict with other mods. MAK-Corp for example uses the prefix "MKC" (without the ") at the start of every material and object name in our mods. This ensures that none of our mods will conflict with ISI work or third party work. We started doing this when we first found an issue with an ISI track which we shared the same material name with. Now we haven't yet sorted it in the current build but it should be sorted in the next update as we've gone through to fix this on all our mods. So from the next update onwards you shouldn't have this problem again, if you do, let us know which track its happening on and we'll investigate it. I think the other mod groups and individual modders need to start doing the prefix thing also.

The other thing I noticed is that when selecting the car from the ISI main screen (you know where you can select the cars and the tracks), none of the car images are shown in the spinner, you just see the ISI RF2 logo. Not a bit deal but it makes it hard to select a car livery because you cannot see the livery unless you go into the upgrades section.
Click to expand...

Those images are manually done. ISI manually made theirs. We are making ours and they will be in a future patch, not sure if they will be in the next patch but they will be in a future patch. :)

Hope these comments have not come across as negative, this is one of my favourite mods, I just wanted to give some feedback as requested.
Click to expand...

They have not come across negative at all, we love to hear feedback of any form especially constructive feedback as it helps us ensure our mods are being developed with the fixes they require. We like to ensure we can provide the very best we can and the feedback helps us a lot.

Thank you for taking the time to write a lengthy feedback post, I greatly appreciate it. :)
 
As we've had a couple of events with this mod at the community where I race, we suffered the brakes issue all the time, so we decided to make a little update which lowers brakes wear (by ten) and unlocks duct size settings.
In case anyone is interested, here is the link: http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/obwyizguitfbkn3/MKCIFS3-082_Vehicle.rfcmp; having 0.80 version installed, this little patch will update vehicle to 0.82 version, and your brakes won't break again :)

byyyyyyyyye
 
Canastos, be careful with updating it, because we do plan to release updates which may conflict with version numbers. The brakes issue only seems to be affecting multiplayer, though in the server we tested regularly we didn't have any issues.
 
canastos said:
As we've had a couple of events with this mod at the community where I race, we suffered the brakes issue all the time, so we decided to make a little update which lowers brakes wear (by ten) and unlocks duct size settings.
In case anyone is interested, here is the link: http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/obwyizguitfbkn3/MKCIFS3-082_Vehicle.rfcmp; having 0.80 version installed, this little patch will update vehicle to 0.82 version, and your brakes won't break again :)

byyyyyyyyye
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I think the mod maker will be happy to update at some point, feel free to share stuff within your league, etc, but this steps onto their toes a bit...
 
It's ok to me; as long as it is version 0.80, it's clear that you will be updating the mod at some point, and everyone interested will download updates from you, the modders; the idea was just to make it raceable in the meantime (maybe I was misunderstood, just to make it clear, I'm not the modder, just an user, one which liked to have races whith these cars ;))

byyyyyyyye

PS: in fact, I was guessing this would help the community, it seems it didn't???
 
canastos said:
It's ok to me; as long as it is version 0.80, it's clear that you will be updating the mod at some point, and everyone interested will download updates from you, the modders; the idea was just to make it raceable in the meantime (maybe I was misunderstood, just to make it clear, I'm not the modder, just an user, one which liked to have races whith these cars ;))

byyyyyyyye

PS: in fact, I was guessing this would help the community, it seems it didn't???
Click to expand...

Thanks for letting us know about the problems. Could you detail what parts you changed etc? I will have a talk with my guys and discuss this issue with the brakes, we didn't seem to have an issue with them during testing. How many laps does your league run? These cars run less amount of laps in real life than say F1 cars so that could have been the issue as well. However, I'll ensure we look into it. I cannot guarantee a quick fix in the next update, but if we are able to get it in, we will. :)

In regards to sharing your version, I don't mind that, though it would be better to contact us with the info so we can change it in our build officially, even by using your changes if you wish to share them. The reason that method is better is because if people update from our official 0.80 to your unofficial 0.82, then when we release our v0.90, it could conflict in the update. In any case, I am glad you took the time to make changes and report them to us, it helps us evaluate these areas for adjustments and fixes in future builds which we're working on currently.

Thank you. :)
 
Well, thank you for your kind words, very appreciated :) in fact, it's me who must thank you again for releasing this mod

The reason for this "homemade update" was online brakes failure, no matter if abused or not, I saw them breaking after a minimum of 7 laps and maximum of 22; I even tried to keep on track after front left failed, but after some few more laps all of them failed as well. First thing I tried was to unlock Bracke Duct:
[BODYAERO]
BrakeDuctRange=(1, 1, 5)
BrakeDuctSetting=1
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But this wasn't enough, brakes kept breaking
Then I swimmed a bit more into HDV file and changed Failure values:
[FRONTLEFT] [FRONTRIGHT] [REARLEFT] and [REARRIGHT]
BrakeWearRate=3.000e-012 // meters of wear per second at optimum temperature
BrakeFailure=(1.40e-003,7.00e-005) // average and variation in disc thickness at failure
Click to expand...

As you can see, I divided by ten all values at those groups of two lines, maybe it was a bit excessive, but after that there was no more brake failure and I just wanted to be sure we could finish races of 40 laps or more (including one pitstop with refueling), and we did it :D

Hope this could be some help

byyyyyyye
 
Keep in mind, we designed these cars to be close to their realistic counterparts, and they never run 40 or more lap races, usually about 20-25 tops. We did testing online as well as offline and never had an issue. Currently I have some other priorities so an update on this car will have to wait a bit but we will have one in the pipeline.
 
But is that the expected lifetime? Don't the teams use the same engine for a bunch of sessions instead of replace them every round?
 
One problem people have with brakes and comparing to real races, is that real cars are fallible- they break and different components are not always of equal quality. If the issue with the IFS3 cars is brakes, IMHO the solution is to be gentler with how you use the brakes, not make the brakes in the mod unbreakable. Real drivers have to work with what they have and part of the challenge is to make what you have last as long as possible while still being as fast as possible.

If you are changing the mod to change the series (turn it into a grand prix series instead of a sprint series) that's a different beast. These cars don't pit and they run short races, so to make it into a series that runs longer races and uses pit stops- changing the mod would be necessary. Having an upgrade option to use the cars in longer races wouldn't be a bad idea for MAK-Corp IMHO. The upgrade would have adjustable brake disks, more brake cooling, more engine cooling and the engine would be tuned down a bit to last longer.
 
Guimengo said:
But is that the expected lifetime? Don't the teams use the same engine for a bunch of sessions instead of replace them every round?
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Engines yes, they generally keep the same engine for awhile, tires tend to last multiple races as well, brakes however are constantly checked between sessions and sometimes replaced entirely. It's down to how hard a driver is on their brakes, but when we did in house testing on a server, we would run a 30 lap stint to check for other things and never had an issue with brakes at all.
 
Guy Moulton said:
One problem people have with brakes and comparing to real races, is that real cars are fallible- they break and different components are not always of equal quality. If the issue with the IFS3 cars is brakes, IMHO the solution is to be gentler with how you use the brakes, not make the brakes in the mod unbreakable. Real drivers have to work with what they have and part of the challenge is to make what you have last as long as possible while still being as fast as possible.

If you are changing the mod to change the series (turn it into a grand prix series instead of a sprint series) that's a different beast. These cars don't pit and they run short races, so to make it into a series that runs longer races and uses pit stops- changing the mod would be necessary. Having an upgrade option to use the cars in longer races wouldn't be a bad idea for MAK-Corp IMHO. The upgrade would have adjustable brake disks, more brake cooling, more engine cooling and the engine would be tuned down a bit to last longer.
Click to expand...

This makes good sense, it would allow servers to restrict brake setups, if needed.
 
Yes, sure, I think it's track related too, in the sense that each track gives brakes different heating/cooling cycles

Derek Nye said:
Keep in mind, we designed these cars to be close to their realistic counterparts, and they never run 40 or more lap races, usually about 20-25 tops. We did testing online as well as offline and never had an issue. Currently I have some other priorities so an update on this car will have to wait a bit but we will have one in the pipeline.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info, Derek, and no hurry, the car is a lot of fun now, updates can only make it better :D

byyyyyyyye
 
canastos said:
Yes, sure, I think it's track related too, in the sense that each track gives brakes different heating/cooling cycles


Thanks for the info, Derek, and no hurry, the car is a lot of fun now, updates can only make it better :D

byyyyyyyye
Click to expand...


No, i mean the inside and outside tires getting same colors of curbs and ads track side.
 
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