One day...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Spinelli, Nov 30, 2014.

  1. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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  2. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    If it's too slippery then that's your problem not the sport's or the physics' :)
     
  3. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Well that's true Spinelli, but I think unfortunately John is probably correct for the majority of the more casual sim racers out there (ie the majority of sim racers as a whole), in that being the regenmeister sounds great and rain spices races up but when it comes down to actually doing it a lot just end up complaining that they keep spinning (because, at risk of flogging a long dead horse, even a decent FFB wheel won't give you the feedback you need to save the kind of small moments that happen 15 times a lap in the rain without concentrating at pretty much 100% the whole time, which very quickly gets tiring). The exodus that usually happens in wet practice sessions (or the voting to change sessions and get different weather) is a pretty good indicator of it.

    Having said that, we need it because this is a sim. And we're already not far off. 2 of the main stumbling points I'm aware of at this stage:
    1. A 'wet' track (above 50% wet level) makes tyres lose grip in a manner which is currently hardcoded. It's not too bad for slick tyres, but the fact treaded tyres lose the same grip percentage really makes it a bit of a waste of time.
    2. The very obvious wet/karting line taken by most/all in that video, typical of the fastest line on an actual track. I made a mistake in a wish list thread of suggesting tyres should have a WetGrooveEffects option, which seemed to make sense, but with more reading (including an old thread or two in this forum) I've realised the realroad rubber shouldn't be the factor (or not the main factor). The current solution appears to be making a track that has varying tarmac properties (different mats, different tdf definitions) so that when they get wet the racing line gets more slippery. In reality I think that's unrealistic and time-consuming; I would suggest some AIW parameters would work better (racing line width, and ... erm... 'intensity', at each AIW point, for the purposes of wet weather slipperiness) and would even be somewhat backwards compatible with already existing tracks. Of course this might lead to non-tweaked tracks getting just as slippery on the straight as in the corners on the racing line (despite the slipperiness being due to worn tarmac, which probably happens a lot less on the straights, hence the intensity suggestion) but I think it would still be ok.
     
  4. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    15 times a lap? 15 times by the end of the first sector :). And you should be concentrating pretty much the whole time anyways. That's part of racing :)
     
  5. David O'Reilly

    David O'Reilly Registered

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    Lazza
    I'm not an expert in these technical aspects at all so sorry if its a dumb or over simplified approach but....
    Does this mean you have assessed and ruled out the possibilities of maybe creating an inverse effect of the rubber in real road as a certain level of water is present.
    IE on a a) dry road rubbering in increases grip on the rubbered line.
    On a b) wet road this same line creates a reduction of grip thus meaning the non rubbered (wet karting ) line has more grip.
    The clever part would be the point at which it switches over from a) to b) maybe it could progress in line with a calc on water levels.
    It would be amazing to drive.
    Anyway sorry if this is too simple and misses key factors.

    BTW we had some rain in an FR 3.5 race last week. Just the right amount as a fully wet track is undrive-able in these cars.
    It showered for 2-3 laps till track fully wet then it cleared. (normal at Sepang).
    It was pretty wet. Lap times went from 1:45ish to 1:59.
    It dried and the drying line came up, really convincing. Times gradually fell, but off the drying line was very slippery.
    Anyway it felt spot on. I have ridden high performance motorcycles in the wet and the same skills were needed. You get that 6th sense for where the centre of mass is and where its going to try to go and you counter steer there as well as using the throttle like it has a fresh egg between your toes and it..

    Concentration was immense. When I finished my wife asked why my eyes were so red which is the same as happens iRL in the wet. and yes there would be 2-3 "moments" at least in EACH corner.
    I went from P22 to P9 in this period as people fell off the track.
     
  6. Jamie Shorting

    Jamie Shorting Registered

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    If you don't use the rain we have now online, I guarantee that you won't use a finished version of rain either. In an online race it's fun to get some wet and dry, even at the current state of rF2 weather.
     
  7. Hedlund_90

    Hedlund_90 Registered

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    No I don't agree with you. How are we supposed to use current state of wet weather for online racing (especially for leagues) when we can't see when it starts to rain? The only sign is that the track is becoming less grippy and then "rain spray" appears. That's long before the track looks wet. When the first drops hit the windshield/visor, you know that i'ts raining and you wonder how many more laps you can do on slicks...this is totally missing. The process is backwards.

    I can promise you that I would use a finished version much more. I'd love to have a few rain showers in some of my league races.
    Actually we did a wet race with SR4L back in 2012 when Brianza was released. And it worked quite good, there was a few problems but overall it was really fun. Back then we had no rain spray at all - but still wet races worked much better. Now it's totally broken. Before, I used to drive offline practice sessions in the wet sometimes. I barely do that anymore :(

    But of course even with a finished wet weather we won't see many public servers using it. I think it's mostly for leagues.
     
  8. Jamie Shorting

    Jamie Shorting Registered

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    You'll never see rain in pickup races, not sure it really belongs there anyway. To be honest I wasn't aware that track gets wet before rain actually starts, that must be something fairly recent. IMO it still wouldn't be unusable. A league can schedule a race of first half wet, second half dry. Sure it will all be scripted but still better than no weather at all IMO. Anyway, it seems as though we're always gaining stuff in one area only to lose stuff from some other area around here.
     
  9. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    What do you mean, Jamie? I've seen rain in pickup races even in it's current state.
     
  10. Golanv

    Golanv Registered

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    One day... we will be aquaplaning in central France?
     
  11. Hedlund_90

    Hedlund_90 Registered

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    Nah, the rain actually starts first, but the new raindrops are so tiny you can't see them unless you're standing still. Therefore you notice lack of grip and rain spray before you even know it's raining :D

    The new raindrops are probably more realistic than the old ones (because I don't think you can see the rain falling while driving 250kmh), but as long as we don't have drops on windshield we have a big problem :p
     
  12. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Feeling the weather, the atmosphere, the world around you, adapting, it is amazing.
     
  13. Ashes

    Ashes Registered

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    Off topic, but damn I miss late 90's F1 - car's looked and sounded superb!
     
  14. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    I was going to put a much higher number, but then it would sound (to some people) like I was exaggerating ;)

    And yes, concentration is obviously important, but wet weather exacerbates the lack of feel you might already have. Last F1 race (I think) Brundle mentioned in the commentary about feeling the vibration from the rear wheels as they started spinning up... that's the sort of thing we don't get with FFB wheels (only) delivering FFB that's getting more pure in terms of wheel feedback.

    Whoa, don't go throwing the E word around...

    What you've described is what I put in the wish list section, but after further reflection I realised it's not the right way to do it.

    Yes, presumably, the rubber build up will lead to a grip loss in the wet... but it's probably a relatively small effect. The main effect is actually that the tarmac surface itself is smoothed over time, much more on the racing line, and that's why the racing line gets more slippery in the wet than off it. So if you tie it purely to realroad, you run the risk of the rubber build up in unusual places causing extra wet grip loss when the track itself should be contributing. Of course most of the time people will use the racing line in the dry, so probably the rubber will follow it and it'll work fine in the wet, but the fastest line is already in the AIW so seems silly to not use it - and that way if you start a fresh session with rain (and no rubber) you'll still get a more slippery racing line in the wet like you should - whereas relying on rubber the whole track would be uniform.

    So yeah, I really really really want people to take proper wet lines on race tracks where you need to in real life, but it needs to be done in a way that will work pretty much all the time. And thinking about the AIW more it already has enough information to fake it fairly well, albeit in the same way on every track (whereas some specific parameters would allow a new track to have less of a change because the racing line isn't as worn, as an example). As I said it is possible now by defining different materials with varying roughness parameters, but even with 6+ polys across the track I don't know if it would provide a smooth enough graduation. Plus it would be more work to set up those mats to follow the racing line, but the AIW is sitting there with the info you'd need :p
     
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  15. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    I agree, Lazza. It's much more difficult due to feeling so much less compared to real-life, and even more so nowadays since most sims are only offering pure-steering-rack-forces-only type of FFB which even further limits all the tiny (and not so tiny) car sensations we need to feel a million times a second. Having said that, I still love those conditions and it's still doable, much trickier though.

    Also, it's best to push just slightly less than you think is possible, rather than always trying to be on the edge of grip like some do-or-die qualifying lap and then wondering why you can't complete a lap followed by exiting the session and wrongly blaming the rain :)
     
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  16. DurgeDriven

    DurgeDriven Banned

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    I agree with you but you need a decent distance race for transitions.

    Also better with cars have Wet tyres, so longer race with random weather pattern can throw up pit strategy.

    In a sprint race there is no strategy, well you can't make up the difference anyways .
    It is like short filling in a 30 minute race, useless.

    ( Really need to fix pitstop times . before variable weather / tyres would work well )

    Which comes back to point already made, casual simmers do 3 laps to 20 minutes.

    Variable weather conditions around course like Belgium would be cool rather then canned levels.

    ==========





    ....................there will be another sim as good as rF2 :p


     
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  17. David O'Reilly

    David O'Reilly Registered

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    Well....It would seem it still makes the rubbered line a very good surrogate for the slippery line on a wet track. Rubbered line=racing line=more wear and smoother surface as well as more rubbered which adds to this phenomenon of lowest grip. Less abrasion, less drainage, more oil. It all follows the racing/rubbered line in direct proportion to the work the tyres are doing at that spot.
    Its going to be smoothest and most worn where the tyres work hardest and deposit the most rubber.
    Also depends I guess on how much rubber in the Real Road system is deposited on the straights. IRL there is less of course as there is less abrasion compared to corners where braking and cornering deposits more rubber.
     
  18. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    There is less rubber on the straights (from realtime data, since 'real' cars are generating it), and if you based the smoothness on the AIW you could do a simple analysis of the path to also vary the smoothness for corners vs straights.

    Don't get me wrong: having a wet grip modifier for the groove would be a quick fix and would probably be good enough most of the time. But technically it's not the right approach, in itself at least.
     
  19. Crankee Stroka

    Crankee Stroka Registered

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    One day....

     
  20. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    I'm going to follow this up with an observation, one already made by myself and others and I don't like to keep repeating it but maybe eventually the approach will change... maybe...

    Basing wet track slipperiness on the rubber certainly wouldn't be the technically correct approach, but it would have served nicely as a placeholder for the last 2+ years. If we're correct in NOT treating rF2 as some sort of proof of concept and actually try to go racing with it (as we have been) then placeholders would be more (much more) than welcome.
     

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