Now THIS is a great summary of OUR user experience

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Kevin Karas, Jul 6, 2021.

  1. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    Despite the fact, that I don't think that setting up the graphics and your controlls is part of the issue as you have to do that in any sim, it's quite clear that the UI and the CS are in an early testing state. I am 100 % sure that they won't offer different CS servers for different releases forever. And once stuff like stats pages, SR and rankings are added, people will see more reason to use it. That said, you are right in the sense that getting into the sim and on track needs to work smoother and faster.

    What I also think that needs to be looked at is to make the entry to the CS more attractive on the entry level. This means a nice bunch of free tracks that are all up to current standards and a free car with top notch quality in the range of the MX5, wich isn't too hard to drive but easy to relate to and offers good racing. I explained it before but the reason why iRacing is that successfull is that people know that they will have an MX5 race every hour with content that they don't have to pay for. It works great as a teaser and I think that there is alot of potential for S397 in that area to teaser the premium content with nice stock content. The website maybe needs a life feed of what races are running and there needs to be a clear schedule at one point. I would tune in more often if I knew that there is a race every hour with a car that I am used to. What's also missing so far is the practice mode and qualy before the races, that you have in iRacing. If they don't work on those things it will certainly be difficult to fill the system with drivers.
     
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  2. Juergen-BY

    Juergen-BY Registered

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    Lol? If i`m not complete wrong, they`re working on the new UI since 4 years...early testing state...what a joke.
     
  3. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    That's allways the same argument, as if they only worked on the UI since 4 years and nothing else. Get real guys. It's pretty clear that the UI can't stay as it is and that it get's developed with the CS in mind. And I simply judge what I see. Even if they told that it is released, it's nowhere near where it should be. It's still in beta state if you ask me.
     
  4. turtleCZ

    turtleCZ Registered

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    Exactly.

    But I saw some ideas about weight. Because I am not sure why but I don't think ACC feels real at all. There is something bad with... I don't know but weight is one part. You feel like steering is somehow strange. Maybe it's some kind of missing inertia, maybe it's about weight transfer only. But it's interesting because ACC is the best game for many people but I don't see full simulation there. Yeah, I am new, so maybe I don't have good taste yet :D

    But rF2 feels like driving some physical and heavy object. And it behaves the same. For instance, AMS2 "jumping" is cool but hardly real. rF2 is jumpy too but it feels like real stuff. Small difference but completely different feeling to me.
     
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  5. Juergen-BY

    Juergen-BY Registered

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    I would agree on the beta state. Tbh, usually, this would be a 4 weeks job for most of the freelancer i know.
     
  6. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    This is interesting topic I like a lot, I like cars physics.

    I have played ACC last time too long ago, perhaps more than 6months ago, but I was not impressed. I was never impressed about it, except in its very first early access release (after hotfix lol). It just felt really right, perhaps it was just a bit on difficult side. But it was way too much for most rooted AC players, it was just too different to AC, they couldn't accept it. Developers quickly adapted to mass demand. Players are part of development loop.

    I wouldn't pay more attention to how steering feels, than to how cars work. And steering feel and how the car respond and what it does is half of the steering feel anyway, our mind just connects what we see car doing with what forces comes through steering.

    Whenever something doesn't feel right, or does feel right, it is doubtful that it goes that much deep to primary causes such as simulation of inertia and weight transfer. It is very doubtful that any proper simulator or even simcade would fail at simulating something from very fundamentals like gravity, weight transfer, inertia... By the way, I see people always love throwing in weight transfer, even pro real life drivers... But you certainly don't feel it, especially in simulation, nor inertia (gforces), you can image those things in simulation to help with car feeling. You could get sense of weight transfer in simulation visually if you get a car that has more compliance, more body roll and pitch, you also could help feeling it by adjusting "head movements" settings. What everyone feels in simracing is tires. You feel load on tires, and how it switches total grip of a car, or on its particular axis. You also feel some particular aspects of car geometry through steering - how heavy the steering is, how fast the steering is, does it go light or not when understeering, how it feels when braking... The load on tires is way more important than weight transfer, that is why it is better to think about load transfer instead of weight transfer, as well as having a sense how aerodynamics changes tire loading. It is all coming down to the very main thing that everyone is feeling, which is grip. rF2 is very dynamic sim, and with properly modeled cars here you should always get a sense of "heavyness", or I'd say it better - stability, it is a feeling that you have grip, thats all. But with great grip comes great responsibility lol. If you have great grip, you can't have "luxury" sliding. Some simulations try to keep a lot of "luxury" sliding, but there is no other way than to loose some of the peak stability then, otherwise you'd end up with too much net grip in total, and would get way too fast laptimes than in reality, so cars end up not feeling "heavy enough", but then they are more overdrivable. iRacing is example of next to none luxury sliding with much of its content, they have a cars that has high performance peak, but then they are really bad if you overdrive them sharply degrading performance over peaks, they can be crazy fast if you manage to keep tires working at their peaks without overdriving, but it is very hard to do that. I think IRL there is little bit of forgiving luxury to get cars sliding when overdriving them, it depends on what car and what tire it is, but they all usually have at least little bit of margin to play with. In reality no circuit racing car/tire has ever been working to be driven with excessive sliding, even those in 50s and pre WW2 wasn't skating all around like 4wd WRC cars on snow, they still had plenty of normal grip, and limits of how much they could be overdriven. I think rF2 simulation is great enough to offer possibility to achieve realistic balance between normal grip and sliding for most tires and cars there ever existed. And with that comes sense of weight, and great force feedback steering feel, it is basically correctly composed grip.
     
  7. Sim_Player

    Sim_Player Registered

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    One thing i always noticed ACC V.S RF2 is how tyre temp spread works.
    Now that we got laser scanned tracks and identical cars etc it will be much closer comparison.
    In ACC the tyre Inside , middle and outside temperature are very very close to each other (in normal driving ). In fact if you have even the tiniest amount of negative camber on car you can never get outside part (O) hotter than inside part (I) on outside tyre.
    and on RF2 the temp spread varies quite a bit with camber, you can ride the tyre on outside part or inside part depending on setup. i get more than 20 degrees difference from outside to inside !
    It is also nice that in setup menu on both games we get surface temp making this comparison even clearer.
    Yes i know different tyre etc but this difference might be too drastic, considering the tyres are made for same car class. I think this is very interesting difference.

    On kunos forums there have been couple of threads regarding this , like people asking they can't get tyre temp spread towards outside even though they are lowering camber.

    This to me says that ACC cars have much less lateral flex (probably unrealistically low lateral flex).
    This is why IMO it feels like tyres only get oversteer in "one direction " i.e only if you longitudinally overpower them by torque/power OR take away vertical load from them (less aero).
    And this is the reason you can see this AC special driving style->



    Only watch corner at 0:10 , you can see he just slammed the throttle from 0% to 100% without any oversteer (the correction movement he does is most probably unnecessary, as you can see no blue lights being lit on dash that shows oversteer live PLUS the throttle HUD doesn't flash yellow to signal TC activation).Also i have driven this same car here many many times,so i know exactly how it feels.
    This is especially noticeable on porsche on acceleration zone due to heavy rear load by weight distribution, load transfer to rear on power and ofcourse rear bias aero.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2021
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  8. turtleCZ

    turtleCZ Registered

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    Maybe, I am not sure. I am rather confused :D

    But I understand what you mean with R3E and iRacing. You need to be very precise if you want to be fast. That's good but it's not much fun to me. At least I understand why it exists. You can't be fast if you slide because you would slide out of track instantly. Interesting approach.

    I did some quick tests:
    PC1 - strange physics, good game
    PC2 - different physics but still strange, good game
    ACC - good physics but I don't feel like driving a car at all, good game
    R3E - good physics, good feeling but when you start to slide it's already too late

    It's hard to play anything else than rF2 then :D

    edit:
    And the sliding winner is AMS2! You can slide there like there is no tomorrow without any consequences. It feels like losing grip is there but very very slow. But it's very fun to play. Almost no grip loss with strange car behavior (jumping) is not good for simulation. Or maybe they can do drifting simulator from it, it would be cool.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2021
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  9. MiguelVallejo

    MiguelVallejo Registered

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    For me AMS2 is like trying to drive a canoe
     
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  10. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Yeah, I guess it is confusing. Tires is not so simple. It is a puzzle, but once everything starts aligning nicely you begin to see the picture and understand pretty much EVERYTHING IN LIFE :D better progressively. Tires are like key into understanding universe :D Ok, just joking, but it is true to understanding vehicles. If you understand better tires, you'll even understand better what goes on with your ground - foot contact when you are walking, or standing on wet tiles in the shower lol

    I have had this thought after soem time playing PC2 - physics inconsistency. Generally pretty forgiving, at some times feels closer to realistic than too far, but the inconsistency was strange to me. It was like out of 10 slides, five are arcade, two are simcade, two are sim and one is to spin you out with no explanation, other than there is some kind of lottery lol And that is in no particular order, but random.

    Drift physics thing is interesting thing. I hear people talking about it frequently. But there is no such thing as drift physics IRL. It is all just how you setup your car. It is basically just having greater grip bias towards front, and enough power to spin rear tires.

    I found awesome video with some drift car physics setup in it:
     
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  11. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    Did most of the freelancers, that you know have to deal with rF2 codebase? Most likely not. So in that regard it doesn't make much sense to judge how good the progress really was, if it was fast enough or too slow. And it's been communicated pretty often that other stuff like the rewrite of the graphics engine, the codebase itself, the Grand Tour game, the big Le mans cooperation and the rest of development that affects all areas of the game and not just the UI, led to interruptions in developing the UI.

    I mean, we can interprete and judge as much as we would like to as arm chair analysts, but the truth is that most of us don't know what's going on and where the issues really are. I am pretty sure Marcel could write a UI in 4 weeks aswell if he didn't have to worry about anything else. That's not me saying that they haven't made mistakes with the UI btw. Features like a dark mode and the wierd structure in some areas should have really been fixed by now, at latest when they released it as the default UI. There is no excuse for that.
     
  12. Sim_Player

    Sim_Player Registered

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    Yep , same for me.
    ACC is like wheels attached to aero device.
    AMS 2 was quickest refund in my life lol.
    Really not very booming hardcore sim market tbh....in terms of realism atleast, we got too many simcades.

    I hate to have so many stuff that fits in between...I either go proper arcade mario kart or go full sim like rf2 (even acc despite it wrong feeling).I never understand the need for simcade.
     
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  13. Sim_Player

    Sim_Player Registered

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    Yea, as one start to learn about car and it's working you start to look for that in simulator. IRL onboard footage is also extremely important to get the clearer image.
    for me the more i played these games/sims the more i understood what to look for on feeling, driving basis atleast.
     
  14. turtleCZ

    turtleCZ Registered

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    Sure, tires are the key to everything :D

    I had the same feeling. Probably interesting physics for a game but a bit to strange for a sim because car does what should not. Sometimes. At least there is some slidey part added so you can catch much more than in PC1.

    To me, drift physics is what tires do after you start to slide. It's very important part of a game. If you slide in R3E your grip is instantly minimal. It's true if you have good front grip it could work but in R3E you lose end and front very soon. No drift configuration of course. But in other games like AMS2, if you start to slide, tires has still awesome grip. You can play with the car like on dirt almost. Still lot of grip everywhere. In AC drifting physics is rather easy to me and I still don't know why because I am not so good at drifting for sure but I can do pretty good stuff in AC. So drifting physics to me is when you cross peak grip of the tire and what happens then. It rather looks like some games has artificial front grip. You lose your end but still has awesome front grip to correct it - doesn't feel right for many setups.
     
  15. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    Lol
     
  16. Seven Smiles

    Seven Smiles Registered

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    Yes, extracting the old UI from the code would have been a bugger of a job but once done it was supposed to be much easier to edit the new UI and we've seen little sign of that. Suggests it's simply a low priority in S397's plans.
     
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  17. turtleCZ

    turtleCZ Registered

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    I am not sure what I am chasing now but I like comparing stuff and finding what is real.

    Strange you have similar feeling about ACC. I don't know what it is, maybe it's just cam only, but steering doesn't feel like car steering :D Physics looks pretty good but something must be off.

    What didn't you like about AMS2?

    I have very good experience with Forza Horizon (tarmac only). It has simcade engine from Motorsport but physics tuning is rather good. It feels like real driving but it's not completely real. This kind of physics is very good to me because it's not dumbed-down Grid or fantasy NFS. Sometimes I wonder what they do to the parameters of Motorsport. I don't like Motorsport too much.

    Sounds good. I don't like common players who don't care about game. I always want to know everything about everything in the game :D

    Exactly, low priority and maybe no money. Changing UI is no big money maker. Could attract new people but I don't think that's the case after ten years after release.
     
  18. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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  19. Sim_Player

    Sim_Player Registered

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    It wasn't even close to what i expect from driving a car, i don't know how to explain it properly.
    but when 2 sims are at good enough you can sort of get the same feeling from driving the same car.
    some traits of driving and setup are different (and will be different unfortunately) but good chunk of it feels similar.
    AMS 2 failed hard in that aspect, it did not match anything i played so far plus it didn't feel like driving a car to begin with.
    This just my opinion.
     
  20. turtleCZ

    turtleCZ Registered

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    Yeah, I do the same. I rather play everything and compare it in between. Some people think it's useless but that's how I play games. I need to know what are the possibilities. Today, for instance, I played GTR2 after so many years to check what was good back then. Still awesome game in many aspects. But it has great engine base :D

    I am not sure about AMS2. It's great game for sure to me. Physics is bit strange but maybe it's strange setups. It feels like they care about reality even on ME but it's not there yet. My guess is ME is not capable for building sims. It's great for games and it's much better than anything from CM, for instance, but probably hard to build any sim on it. Everybody says how SETA is complex and cool but it looks more like a marketing to me. It's maybe complex but hardly works :D I don't know... still so new to sims. I hope I am wrong and Reiza will build some sim competition. Or maybe they will use good engine next time. OMG, AMS2 on ISIMotor would be amazing.
     

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