Now THIS is a great summary of OUR user experience

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Kevin Karas, Jul 6, 2021.

  1. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    You can slide in R3E, it depends on a car but at least small slides are possible in most of them. R3E has few generators of tire models and usually the older ones slide less. There is a difference in rF2, but who knows which is more realistic? In rF2 DLC GT cars slide too much and you could recover from most big slides, which wasn’t realistic. There wasn’t enough grip fall off in GT3 cars. It was too forgiving - at the opposite end of spectrum than iRacing in general. Not long time ago S397 made the GT3 cars a bit less forgiving so that past some point it’s hard to recover.
     
  2. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Yeah, iiric aero sensitivity to yaw was increased. And now they are thinking about adopting new tire knowledge which they used in new BMWC1 and FPro. Which also a bit less slidey.

    But wait. Are we measuring realism by how much and easily can you slide the car ? It is way more complex than that.
     
  3. turtleCZ

    turtleCZ Registered

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    Exactly, I don't know what is more real. Even in real car you won't go 150 and start to slide just to see what happens :D

    It's about recovery to me. iRacing should be most hard, R3E is second and then there is rF2. I don't know other game with similar sliding. You can play with your car during slides and it's awesome. Is it real? I don't know but I love it. AMS1, rF2 and mostly AMS2.

    I started with sims year ago and this is the biggest problem to me. Why I can slide like crazy in rF2 but I can't in other games?
     
  4. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    It depends on a lot of things. First of all, what you consider crazy ? Then what content you are talking about in rF2, because there are some content which fits different kinds of perceptions, some allow crazy sliding, some moderate amount of it. Third, it depends on reality, what cars are we talking about.

    I am not familiar with Raceroom too much, played very little of it. I remember I was sliding cars, although in general physics didn't impress me.

    iRacing is notorious about it's challenges of sliding, most agree it is too difficult, also usually they get faster laptimes than RL, it is on rails driving sim, but there are some cars there which are better, there are some pretty good I'd ones I'd say.

    AMS1 is awesome. rF2 is best to me, and I also have a lot of personal physics cars that boosts my personal experience with rF2.

    AMS2 is too easy from what I often hear from people. I don't have AMS2, but it makes sense to come that is more of a followup to Project Cars 2 than to AMS1 (because of game engine).
     
  5. turtleCZ

    turtleCZ Registered

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    It's like I never played anything similar. I started on consoles with AC and PC and it was OK. You could slide sometimes and it was OK. But in rF2 you don't need to care too much. It's like you said about iRacing and rails. Every game is like on rails against rF2 to me. I can play with slip angle so much more than in any game. And almost everything is catchable. That's crazy to me and I love it. Hard to say how real it is.

    I like something like GT3 and road cars. Almost everything is similar. New Formula is the best formula I played, it's so cool with this kind of possible "sliding". Everything is so alive because your input is always there.

    You can't slide cars in R3E now. You can catch really small slides but everything else feels like scripted movie. You lost grip and only can watch 5 seconds of a movie. No input allowed.

    Agree with iRacing, I discuss it with few people.

    I like AMS1 too, it's like rF2 in some ways. AMS2 is sometimes rather easy and it's mostly strange. Feels a bit like AMS1 but with strange ME behavior. I am not sure they will build something consistent around ME. AMS1 was so good to me. Maybe next AMS will be on "right" engine :D
     
  6. Sim_Player

    Sim_Player Registered

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    tyres and aero issues. tyres can forgive too much abuse and aero gain at front (on gt3 afaik) is extreme, hence you see alien "exploits" like super stiff front and full soft rear, static negative or low rake. This is why cars feels more loose/slidey.
    with new tyre knowledge i hope they will fix aero on gt cars as well otherwise we would see another wave of "exploits" to counter bad aero OR cars will simple be undrivable without max rear wing on every track.

    P.S -> exploits isn't a correct term just to be clear, the alien setup are just way getting performance out of wrong implimentaion.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2021
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  7. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    R3E in that sentence can be replaced with anything.
     
  8. turtleCZ

    turtleCZ Registered

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    Yeah, that's the reason I asked here. It's so strange. Both physics are very different but both games are the best sims. Every game developer has real racers and still every game is very different. Next part are fans. Every game is the best according to them.

    Funny thing is then when somebody said sims are like real stuff. Sure, that's the reason why every sim is so different :D
     
  9. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Well that at the same time sounds good and bad for rF2. But I suppose you are actually a good driver, otherwise it would make an impression you have entered an arcade in rF2, which can't be true. Although realism discussions are frequently going here, there used to be some complaints about how some cars were accepting too much of abuse. But new BMW and Formula cars seems to be fine, or at least a lot better.

    To be honest, I also find it easier to overdrive cars in rF2 than in most sims, with some exceptions. Once I gave my friend who doesn't simrace, and doesn't even have a car or drives anything, and he was rather happy about how he could drive the car, it just felt correct (although he just drove it casually, and wasn't overdriving).

    I think there is something great about rF2 that puts it in position that can be very comparable to reality, and car control is quite intuitive, natural. Unlike in some other games, there are things about their physics that you have to learn, because something about driving is unnatural and non-intuitive. I used to play AC so much in the past, there is some kind of pattern felt when overdriving cars, that is although slightly different in each car, still feels like the same action over and over and over again, feels fitting some cars more and some less. And once you understand that pattern it is relatively easy to drive over the limit anything there. In rF2 each "big moment" can be more subtle and more unique, even in same or similar cars in same racing session.

    Speaking of realism, and how much it should be possible with sliding, what has to be done is good honest comparing to reality, normally fastest pro drivers with chad driving styles will overdrive their race cars just about where it is still possible to keep it going. Must look there and compare.

    Plenty of nice overdriving moments in here, GT4 FTW:


    And here is some huge huge moment with Lamborghini:
     
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  10. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    See, this is where we have a very different perceptions of what "working" means. The rF2 UI is "working" for me aswell. Same goes for the competitions system. But as with any system, there are areas where more work is needed. iRacing still hasn't managed to deliver a smooth online experience for big events, even after 13 years of development and despite the money that they request. It's actually an insult to the people paying for that service. In rF2 I get that system for free btw. rF2 is alot more fleshed out in some areas than many other products actually but many people just put those aside. The rain part coupled with real road is a very good example of that. But it is a product that was advertised as a product with ongoing development right from the beginning and those who haven't undestood this by now are looking for something that they won't get. It's very simple. How hard is it to understand that it is a sandbox? There will be new features implemented that are in development but that's basicly the same for any sim out there. There is a culture of WIP in game development as release cycles have sped up tremendously, not just for game releases but also for DLCs and updates to the core games. A lack of features is for me as bad as badly implemented features. The first is a sign of no execution at all while the second is a sign of bad execution and I sometimes prefer that they tried it atleast.

    If you don't know much about modding how does it happen that you come to a judgement regarding the support? How does it come that we see people producing 3rd party content on a regular base, updating their content to current spec and that we are still able to use content that is years old despite huge updates to the core? What's up with the big update for the dev guide? Is that worth nothing? That was certainly not done in five minutes and it's work that needs to be payed aswell. How does it come that 3rd party content made it into the game and the competition system? If you really consider this as "not much help" then I would give you the advice to think twice what you wrote in that comment as the facts speak a different language.

    Btw, I come from a modding community for a game where all documentation was basicly done by the modders and trial and error were alot more common than with rF2. In fact, it's the modders that developed plugins for 3DSmax etc. So people who complain about the lack of modding support for rF2 have barely any idea what they are talking about.
     
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  11. Pawel44

    Pawel44 Registered

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    Except Linux runs fine out of the box. Much better than Windows on my hardware.
     
  12. Seven Smiles

    Seven Smiles Registered

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    Not my experience (and that includes programming the kernel professionally) though it has slowly got better over time - at a rate that makes rF2's progress look supersonic. Glad your experience has been better :)
     
  13. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    You can’t compare iRacing competition system to rF2. If it was remotely as good as good as iRacing’s players would move to rF2. Instead it seems if any game is competitive in this aspect it’s RaceRoom, where you often see full grids in ranked races.
    What do you mean iRacing don’t provide smooth experience for big events? I heard they regularly host big events for hundreds of players with no significant problems. Try that with rF2.
    You can say rF2 is a sandbox but does it explain why there are so many long standing issues not fixed? Instead they focus on graphics, UI , broadcasts and competition system with underwhelming results. You mentioned rain but it’s also acknowledged there is long standing issue with grip.
    Yes I know almost nothing about modding, but I’ve read many complaints by modders. I’ve read it’s much easier to mod in AC.
     
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  14. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    AC is a lot more simple to begin with.

    As for competition system. So far my best experience was in AC with "sim racing system" and in rF2 with "Just Race" system.

    In iRacign I have found two main problems that are beyond stupid in my opinion. At least it was so back then: overlapping races and performance rating that has no relation with safety rating. It is a crashfest in iRacing way too often, especially when stuff gets very competitive.

    I have not had any luck with Competition System in rF2. Everything there seems so unclear with that UI, there is lack of information, no stats. And once I tried to register, I could not enter anyway. It is like toddler, and it is beta as far as I remember. It is nothing like Just Race system that was there already long ago, and even more so behind "sim racing system" of AC that was running for ages now. And iRacing besides is popularity, marketign and that some superstars race in there is just not that good.
     
  15. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    I'm going to slightly nerd out here regarding the handling in rF2/real life, and perhaps what other sims don't do as well or not at all.

    It's clear by the video, that when the driver is right on the edge mid corner and he applies the brakes, the car rotates around it's centre of mass. In this moment, if you were to freeze time, I feel as if you could walk over to the car and with one hand, push on the rear quater panel or anywhere at the outer rear or front edges of the car, and rotate the car about it's axis, clockwise or anti-clock wise. Now this may not be technically correct at all, but I just get the sense that the car is acting like it were in free fall. The grip of the tires has become secondary. It's as if the front and rear tires of the car have been put on castor wheels, and it is now the mass of the car and how that mass is distributed that is overwhelmingly dictating the behaviour of the car.

    It'd be interesting to know the amount of torque needed to spin the car on it's axis at that moment, perhaps it is a lot more than I think it is. I just wanted to illustrate this feeling that I get while driving in rF2 that if everything is at it's limit and balanced, and you've got the perfect amount of momentum and line, you can almost spin the car like a top as you rotate it around an apex.

    For all I know Newtonian physics are probably not that hard to accurately simulate, as everything is well determined, in that case it must be how the tires and the physical mechanics interplay with each other that makes rF2 feel more real than anything else. Maybe other sims also do this well and I just havn't gone deep enough with them. My feeling with other sims like AC is a sense of perpetual understeer, like the mass of the car only acts as a linear mass and always wants to move at a tangent to the corner (i.e go staight on), without having the rotational mass also acting on the car. The only other sims that I am able to achieve the same feeling as I'm describing, is BeamNG and perhaps AMS1.
     
  16. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    @green serpent

    Yes it definitely does. This is the technique almost every fastest driver use IRL and in proper simulations. By applying this extra torque you simply win turn-in and mid turn in some of more technical turns if you can keep the car away from loosing momentum.

    Normally it is more like controlled neutral steer or bit of oversteer, so there is still grip at least on at least some of the tires. Although even if all tires would slide, there still would be friction, because sliding is just other form of friction, it is just lower than normally griping static friction. In slow turns cars should be able to get away with little bit of complete sliding when overrotating during turn in or mid turn, because speeds are small, and sliding friction is enough to slow down sliding into normal static grip early enough to maintain control of the car.

    If you'd freeze time during that moment when entire car on all for tires is sliding and overrotating, you'd probably still have hard time to push it. And the car would probably not rotate around its CG, unless friction would be equal on all tires, and you'd also have another person pushing car around at the opposite side and opposite direction, because car isn't statically fixed by its middle. I don't know if this is correct, I am just quickly assuming without much thinking, but lets say car weights a ton and tires normally could take 2g at particular turn, and sliding friction would be 60% of static friction at that particular sliding speed (before serious overheating drops sliding friction lower), the tires should be still good enough for 1.2g (or thats where they should switch back to static friction I guess, without thinking much about inertia). So I just guess that if you'd froze time during car overrotation and would push on rear axle that has tires loaded by 500kg, you'd still have difficulty to push it even if it is supported by sliding friction already, unless you still have inertia active even with time frame frozen, then you should know inertia too. You'd probably could push car manually on one axle on ice when it is the most slippery (around 0C), as google suggests then wet ice has static friction coef at 0.05 - wow.

    Newtonian physics shouldn't indeed be too insane of a thing to simulate. The most difficult definitely is tires and aero. And both seems great in rF2. Personally I can't understand how not to love physical simulation of rF2 tires. It has so much parameters that are intuitive and straightforward - such as tire stiffness in all directions of motion, tire sliding friction curve for different speeds for adhesive, macro and micro roughness, abrasive wear vs temperatures curve that also influences grip, WLF parameters that I have almost no understanding about, friction multipliers for all friction kinds for rubber groove and for damp surfaces.... and so on.. All working with many bristle model tire bristles, that also has their stiffness and damping settings.... and much more. It is just all right there in rF2 to create best handling, most realistically handling stuff.

    Here is one Simracer/real racer talking exactly about using this technique from 5:10 of the video. He mentions using brake bias to achieve that, but there could be several ways. I for example like more loose coast differential and more aggressive downshifting to achieve similar thing (when those settings are available in setups):
     
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  17. EricW

    EricW Registered

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    I doubt any random newcomer in the community weighs all these things..
    They are users who want to race now, mostly young guys, they're not resellers with commercial interests.
    Racing now requires a fluent installation, easy to navigate UI with everything needed, and a easy and proper online experience with a excellent driver and safety rating system and circuit specific baseline setups for all selectable cars.
    Both RR and Iracing provide that and ACC also without big issues or having to search the Internet to get it going.
    Get the base working first before thinking about new features, or simply drop it and start from scratch.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2021
  18. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    Some fair points, but this also leads to the fact that most games go more and more for shortcuts, simple models and the same content, while the niche products like rF2 are a rarity. But you still need those products to breach the boundaries and set new standards, even if they look like messy tech demos. When rF2 was released very few sims had something like dynamic TOD, dynamic racing lines, flag systems, working safety cars, chasis flex, tire flex, rain and yad yada yada. The list is pretty big. There were a few products that had those things to some extend before, but not with the same complexity. Today, those features (or some of them) are genre standard wich is good for us. ISI never got a benefit from this as they had a very weird way of selling the product, but it's still something to keep in mind. And ofcourse you won't hook people in an instance who are just looking for easy pickup racing. The competition system isn't developed enough and the UI isn't smooth enough. But you still will get the people who are looking for a deep sandbox experience. I would also argue that's it's actually pretty easy to get into the competition system. But it needs a clear schedule and more frequent races at entry level. Something like the MX5 races in iRacing is clearly missing.
     
  19. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    Did you even read my comment? Did I say that the rF2 competition system is remotely as good as the iRacing system? No. Why should a system that is still in early development be as good as a system that is in development since over a decade? I know you just want to be pick something that you don't like about rF2 for the sake of it, but it's also important to see that you rent the content, and pay for a service that works on entry level. But whenever there is a big event like Le mans 24h or Daytona or the Indy 500 there are big issues. That's no secret. And you don't buy a single car like in rF2, where 5,99 Euro are a

    And while we are at long standing issues: the graphics engine has been THE long standing issue as it required a beast of a PC while having the worst image quality. I am still amazed that we are still discussing this. And there is no long standing issue with rain in rF2. It simply lacks a feature that is implemented in one single product on the market. And while ACC has this feature it has a few rain feautres that rF2 has, like a dynamic racing line that dries up basced on vehicle trajectory. People who claim that the rain system in rF2 is broken have wierd double standards.

    And regarding modding: that it is easier to mod in AC is true, but this has nothing to do with the lack of support but the complexity and accessiblity of the product. Once again, people who really think that the support for modders in rF2 is bad, should take a look at games where it's basicly nonexistent. To say that rF2 mod support is on the better end is an understatement.
     
  20. EricW

    EricW Registered

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    Once you have setup everything and figured out the right settings to get a acceptable Performance for online races, be it on screens or in VR, than yes its fairly easy to join the CS.
    The low attendance prove to me it's not as easy though.
    And now we even have different CS sessions in different releases and online servers using different releases...for a outsider it's most likely abacadabra.
     
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