Now THIS is a great summary of OUR user experience

Not my experience (and that includes programming the kernel professionally) though it has slowly got better over time - at a rate that makes rF2's progress look supersonic. Glad your experience has been better :)
 
You can’t compare iRacing competition system to rF2. If it was remotely as good as good as iRacing’s players would move to rF2. Instead it seems if any game is competitive in this aspect it’s RaceRoom, where you often see full grids in ranked races.
What do you mean iRacing don’t provide smooth experience for big events? I heard they regularly host big events for hundreds of players with no significant problems. Try that with rF2.
You can say rF2 is a sandbox but does it explain why there are so many long standing issues not fixed? Instead they focus on graphics, UI , broadcasts and competition system with underwhelming results. You mentioned rain but it’s also acknowledged there is long standing issue with grip.
Yes I know almost nothing about modding, but I’ve read many complaints by modders. I’ve read it’s much easier to mod in AC.
 
AC is a lot more simple to begin with.

As for competition system. So far my best experience was in AC with "sim racing system" and in rF2 with "Just Race" system.

In iRacign I have found two main problems that are beyond stupid in my opinion. At least it was so back then: overlapping races and performance rating that has no relation with safety rating. It is a crashfest in iRacing way too often, especially when stuff gets very competitive.

I have not had any luck with Competition System in rF2. Everything there seems so unclear with that UI, there is lack of information, no stats. And once I tried to register, I could not enter anyway. It is like toddler, and it is beta as far as I remember. It is nothing like Just Race system that was there already long ago, and even more so behind "sim racing system" of AC that was running for ages now. And iRacing besides is popularity, marketign and that some superstars race in there is just not that good.
 
mantasisg said:
Speaking of realism, and how much it should be possible with sliding, what has to be done is good honest comparing to reality, normally fastest pro drivers with chad driving styles will overdrive their race cars just about where it is still possible to keep it going. Must look there and compare.

Plenty of nice overdriving moments in here, GT4 FTW
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I'm going to slightly nerd out here regarding the handling in rF2/real life, and perhaps what other sims don't do as well or not at all.

It's clear by the video, that when the driver is right on the edge mid corner and he applies the brakes, the car rotates around it's centre of mass. In this moment, if you were to freeze time, I feel as if you could walk over to the car and with one hand, push on the rear quater panel or anywhere at the outer rear or front edges of the car, and rotate the car about it's axis, clockwise or anti-clock wise. Now this may not be technically correct at all, but I just get the sense that the car is acting like it were in free fall. The grip of the tires has become secondary. It's as if the front and rear tires of the car have been put on castor wheels, and it is now the mass of the car and how that mass is distributed that is overwhelmingly dictating the behaviour of the car.

It'd be interesting to know the amount of torque needed to spin the car on it's axis at that moment, perhaps it is a lot more than I think it is. I just wanted to illustrate this feeling that I get while driving in rF2 that if everything is at it's limit and balanced, and you've got the perfect amount of momentum and line, you can almost spin the car like a top as you rotate it around an apex.

For all I know Newtonian physics are probably not that hard to accurately simulate, as everything is well determined, in that case it must be how the tires and the physical mechanics interplay with each other that makes rF2 feel more real than anything else. Maybe other sims also do this well and I just havn't gone deep enough with them. My feeling with other sims like AC is a sense of perpetual understeer, like the mass of the car only acts as a linear mass and always wants to move at a tangent to the corner (i.e go staight on), without having the rotational mass also acting on the car. The only other sims that I am able to achieve the same feeling as I'm describing, is BeamNG and perhaps AMS1.
 
@green serpent

Yes it definitely does. This is the technique almost every fastest driver use IRL and in proper simulations. By applying this extra torque you simply win turn-in and mid turn in some of more technical turns if you can keep the car away from loosing momentum.

Normally it is more like controlled neutral steer or bit of oversteer, so there is still grip at least on at least some of the tires. Although even if all tires would slide, there still would be friction, because sliding is just other form of friction, it is just lower than normally griping static friction. In slow turns cars should be able to get away with little bit of complete sliding when overrotating during turn in or mid turn, because speeds are small, and sliding friction is enough to slow down sliding into normal static grip early enough to maintain control of the car.

If you'd freeze time during that moment when entire car on all for tires is sliding and overrotating, you'd probably still have hard time to push it. And the car would probably not rotate around its CG, unless friction would be equal on all tires, and you'd also have another person pushing car around at the opposite side and opposite direction, because car isn't statically fixed by its middle. I don't know if this is correct, I am just quickly assuming without much thinking, but lets say car weights a ton and tires normally could take 2g at particular turn, and sliding friction would be 60% of static friction at that particular sliding speed (before serious overheating drops sliding friction lower), the tires should be still good enough for 1.2g (or thats where they should switch back to static friction I guess, without thinking much about inertia). So I just guess that if you'd froze time during car overrotation and would push on rear axle that has tires loaded by 500kg, you'd still have difficulty to push it even if it is supported by sliding friction already, unless you still have inertia active even with time frame frozen, then you should know inertia too. You'd probably could push car manually on one axle on ice when it is the most slippery (around 0C), as google suggests then wet ice has static friction coef at 0.05 - wow.

Newtonian physics shouldn't indeed be too insane of a thing to simulate. The most difficult definitely is tires and aero. And both seems great in rF2. Personally I can't understand how not to love physical simulation of rF2 tires. It has so much parameters that are intuitive and straightforward - such as tire stiffness in all directions of motion, tire sliding friction curve for different speeds for adhesive, macro and micro roughness, abrasive wear vs temperatures curve that also influences grip, WLF parameters that I have almost no understanding about, friction multipliers for all friction kinds for rubber groove and for damp surfaces.... and so on.. All working with many bristle model tire bristles, that also has their stiffness and damping settings.... and much more. It is just all right there in rF2 to create best handling, most realistically handling stuff.

Here is one Simracer/real racer talking exactly about using this technique from 5:10 of the video. He mentions using brake bias to achieve that, but there could be several ways. I for example like more loose coast differential and more aggressive downshifting to achieve similar thing (when those settings are available in setups):
 
hitm4k3r said:
But it also makes sense to look back at the history of those products and their development and what they are
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I doubt any random newcomer in the community weighs all these things..
They are users who want to race now, mostly young guys, they're not resellers with commercial interests.
Racing now requires a fluent installation, easy to navigate UI with everything needed, and a easy and proper online experience with a excellent driver and safety rating system and circuit specific baseline setups for all selectable cars.
Both RR and Iracing provide that and ACC also without big issues or having to search the Internet to get it going.
Get the base working first before thinking about new features, or simply drop it and start from scratch.
 
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EricW said:
I doubt any random newcomer in the community weighs all these things..
They are users who want to race now, mostly young guys, they're not resellers with commercial interests.
Racing now requires a fluent installation, easy to navigate UI with everything needed, and a easy and proper online experience with a excellent driver and safety rating system and circuit specific baseline setups for all selectable cars.
Both RR and Iracing provide that and ACC also without big issues or having to search the Internet to get it going.
Get the base working first before thinking about new features, or simply drop it and start from scratch.
Click to expand...
Some fair points, but this also leads to the fact that most games go more and more for shortcuts, simple models and the same content, while the niche products like rF2 are a rarity. But you still need those products to breach the boundaries and set new standards, even if they look like messy tech demos. When rF2 was released very few sims had something like dynamic TOD, dynamic racing lines, flag systems, working safety cars, chasis flex, tire flex, rain and yad yada yada. The list is pretty big. There were a few products that had those things to some extend before, but not with the same complexity. Today, those features (or some of them) are genre standard wich is good for us. ISI never got a benefit from this as they had a very weird way of selling the product, but it's still something to keep in mind. And ofcourse you won't hook people in an instance who are just looking for easy pickup racing. The competition system isn't developed enough and the UI isn't smooth enough. But you still will get the people who are looking for a deep sandbox experience. I would also argue that's it's actually pretty easy to get into the competition system. But it needs a clear schedule and more frequent races at entry level. Something like the MX5 races in iRacing is clearly missing.
 
avenger82 said:
You can’t compare iRacing competition system to rF2. If it was remotely as good as good as iRacing’s players would move to rF2. Instead it seems if any game is competitive in this aspect it’s RaceRoom, where you often see full grids in ranked races.
What do you mean iRacing don’t provide smooth experience for big events? I heard they regularly host big events for hundreds of players with no significant problems. Try that with rF2.
You can say rF2 is a sandbox but does it explain why there are so many long standing issues not fixed? Instead they focus on graphics, UI , broadcasts and competition system with underwhelming results. You mentioned rain but it’s also acknowledged there is long standing issue with grip.
Yes I know almost nothing about modding, but I’ve read many complaints by modders. I’ve read it’s much easier to mod in AC.
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Did you even read my comment? Did I say that the rF2 competition system is remotely as good as the iRacing system? No. Why should a system that is still in early development be as good as a system that is in development since over a decade? I know you just want to be pick something that you don't like about rF2 for the sake of it, but it's also important to see that you rent the content, and pay for a service that works on entry level. But whenever there is a big event like Le mans 24h or Daytona or the Indy 500 there are big issues. That's no secret. And you don't buy a single car like in rF2, where 5,99 Euro are a

And while we are at long standing issues: the graphics engine has been THE long standing issue as it required a beast of a PC while having the worst image quality. I am still amazed that we are still discussing this. And there is no long standing issue with rain in rF2. It simply lacks a feature that is implemented in one single product on the market. And while ACC has this feature it has a few rain feautres that rF2 has, like a dynamic racing line that dries up basced on vehicle trajectory. People who claim that the rain system in rF2 is broken have wierd double standards.

And regarding modding: that it is easier to mod in AC is true, but this has nothing to do with the lack of support but the complexity and accessiblity of the product. Once again, people who really think that the support for modders in rF2 is bad, should take a look at games where it's basicly nonexistent. To say that rF2 mod support is on the better end is an understatement.
 
hitm4k3r said:
I would also argue that's it's actually pretty easy to get into the competition system. But it needs a clear schedule and more frequent races at entry level. Something like the MX5 races in iRacing is clearly missing
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Once you have setup everything and figured out the right settings to get a acceptable Performance for online races, be it on screens or in VR, than yes its fairly easy to join the CS.
The low attendance prove to me it's not as easy though.
And now we even have different CS sessions in different releases and online servers using different releases...for a outsider it's most likely abacadabra.
 
EricW said:
Once you have setup everything and figured out the right settings to get a acceptable Performance for online races, be it on screens or in VR, than yes its fairly easy to join the CS.
The low attendance prove to me it's not as easy though.
And now we even have different CS sessions in different releases and online servers using different releases...for a outsider it's most likely abacadabra.
Click to expand...
Despite the fact, that I don't think that setting up the graphics and your controlls is part of the issue as you have to do that in any sim, it's quite clear that the UI and the CS are in an early testing state. I am 100 % sure that they won't offer different CS servers for different releases forever. And once stuff like stats pages, SR and rankings are added, people will see more reason to use it. That said, you are right in the sense that getting into the sim and on track needs to work smoother and faster.

What I also think that needs to be looked at is to make the entry to the CS more attractive on the entry level. This means a nice bunch of free tracks that are all up to current standards and a free car with top notch quality in the range of the MX5, wich isn't too hard to drive but easy to relate to and offers good racing. I explained it before but the reason why iRacing is that successfull is that people know that they will have an MX5 race every hour with content that they don't have to pay for. It works great as a teaser and I think that there is alot of potential for S397 in that area to teaser the premium content with nice stock content. The website maybe needs a life feed of what races are running and there needs to be a clear schedule at one point. I would tune in more often if I knew that there is a race every hour with a car that I am used to. What's also missing so far is the practice mode and qualy before the races, that you have in iRacing. If they don't work on those things it will certainly be difficult to fill the system with drivers.
 
Juergen-BY said:
Lol? If i`m not complete wrong, they`re working on the new UI since 4 years...early testing state...what a joke.
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That's allways the same argument, as if they only worked on the UI since 4 years and nothing else. Get real guys. It's pretty clear that the UI can't stay as it is and that it get's developed with the CS in mind. And I simply judge what I see. Even if they told that it is released, it's nowhere near where it should be. It's still in beta state if you ask me.
 
hitm4k3r said:
That's allways the same argument, as if they only worked on the UI since 4 years and nothing else. Get real guys. It's pretty clear that the UI can't stay as it is and that it get's developed with the CS in mind. And I simply judge what I see. Even if they told that it is released, it's nowhere near where it should be. It's still in beta state if you ask me.
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I would agree on the beta state. Tbh, usually, this would be a 4 weeks job for most of the freelancer i know.
 
turtleCZ said:
Exactly.

But I saw some ideas about weight. Because I am not sure why but I don't think ACC feels real at all. There is something bad with... I don't know but weight is one part. You feel like steering is somehow strange. Maybe it's some kind of missing inertia, maybe it's about weight transfer only. But it's interesting because ACC is the best game for many people but I don't see full simulation there. Yeah, I am new, so maybe I don't have good taste yet :D

But rF2 feels like driving some physical and heavy object. And it behaves the same. For instance, AMS2 "jumping" is cool but hardly real. rF2 is jumpy too but it feels like real stuff. Small difference but completely different feeling to me.
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This is interesting topic I like a lot, I like cars physics.

I have played ACC last time too long ago, perhaps more than 6months ago, but I was not impressed. I was never impressed about it, except in its very first early access release (after hotfix lol). It just felt really right, perhaps it was just a bit on difficult side. But it was way too much for most rooted AC players, it was just too different to AC, they couldn't accept it. Developers quickly adapted to mass demand. Players are part of development loop.

I wouldn't pay more attention to how steering feels, than to how cars work. And steering feel and how the car respond and what it does is half of the steering feel anyway, our mind just connects what we see car doing with what forces comes through steering.

Whenever something doesn't feel right, or does feel right, it is doubtful that it goes that much deep to primary causes such as simulation of inertia and weight transfer. It is very doubtful that any proper simulator or even simcade would fail at simulating something from very fundamentals like gravity, weight transfer, inertia... By the way, I see people always love throwing in weight transfer, even pro real life drivers... But you certainly don't feel it, especially in simulation, nor inertia (gforces), you can image those things in simulation to help with car feeling. You could get sense of weight transfer in simulation visually if you get a car that has more compliance, more body roll and pitch, you also could help feeling it by adjusting "head movements" settings. What everyone feels in simracing is tires. You feel load on tires, and how it switches total grip of a car, or on its particular axis. You also feel some particular aspects of car geometry through steering - how heavy the steering is, how fast the steering is, does it go light or not when understeering, how it feels when braking... The load on tires is way more important than weight transfer, that is why it is better to think about load transfer instead of weight transfer, as well as having a sense how aerodynamics changes tire loading. It is all coming down to the very main thing that everyone is feeling, which is grip. rF2 is very dynamic sim, and with properly modeled cars here you should always get a sense of "heavyness", or I'd say it better - stability, it is a feeling that you have grip, thats all. But with great grip comes great responsibility lol. If you have great grip, you can't have "luxury" sliding. Some simulations try to keep a lot of "luxury" sliding, but there is no other way than to loose some of the peak stability then, otherwise you'd end up with too much net grip in total, and would get way too fast laptimes than in reality, so cars end up not feeling "heavy enough", but then they are more overdrivable. iRacing is example of next to none luxury sliding with much of its content, they have a cars that has high performance peak, but then they are really bad if you overdrive them sharply degrading performance over peaks, they can be crazy fast if you manage to keep tires working at their peaks without overdriving, but it is very hard to do that. I think IRL there is little bit of forgiving luxury to get cars sliding when overdriving them, it depends on what car and what tire it is, but they all usually have at least little bit of margin to play with. In reality no circuit racing car/tire has ever been working to be driven with excessive sliding, even those in 50s and pre WW2 wasn't skating all around like 4wd WRC cars on snow, they still had plenty of normal grip, and limits of how much they could be overdriven. I think rF2 simulation is great enough to offer possibility to achieve realistic balance between normal grip and sliding for most tires and cars there ever existed. And with that comes sense of weight, and great force feedback steering feel, it is basically correctly composed grip.
 
turtleCZ said:
Maybe, I am not sure. I am rather confused :D



edit:
And the sliding winner is AMS2! You can slide there like there is no tomorrow without any consequences. It feels like losing grip is there but very very slow. But it's very fun to play. Almost no grip loss with strange car behavior (jumping) is not good for simulation. Or maybe they can do drifting simulator from it, it would be cool.
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For me AMS2 is like trying to drive a canoe
 
turtleCZ said:
Maybe, I am not sure. I am rather confused :D

PC2 - different physics but still strange, good game

edit:
And the sliding winner is AMS2! You can slide there like there is no tomorrow without any consequences. It feels like losing grip is there but very very slow. But it's very fun to play. Almost no grip loss with strange car behavior (jumping) is not good for simulation. Or maybe they can do drifting simulator from it, it would be cool.
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Yeah, I guess it is confusing. Tires is not so simple. It is a puzzle, but once everything starts aligning nicely you begin to see the picture and understand pretty much EVERYTHING IN LIFE :D better progressively. Tires are like key into understanding universe :D Ok, just joking, but it is true to understanding vehicles. If you understand better tires, you'll even understand better what goes on with your ground - foot contact when you are walking, or standing on wet tiles in the shower lol

I have had this thought after soem time playing PC2 - physics inconsistency. Generally pretty forgiving, at some times feels closer to realistic than too far, but the inconsistency was strange to me. It was like out of 10 slides, five are arcade, two are simcade, two are sim and one is to spin you out with no explanation, other than there is some kind of lottery lol And that is in no particular order, but random.

Drift physics thing is interesting thing. I hear people talking about it frequently. But there is no such thing as drift physics IRL. It is all just how you setup your car. It is basically just having greater grip bias towards front, and enough power to spin rear tires.

I found awesome video with some drift car physics setup in it:
 
Juergen-BY said:
I would agree on the beta state. Tbh, usually, this would be a 4 weeks job for most of the freelancer i know.
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Did most of the freelancers, that you know have to deal with rF2 codebase? Most likely not. So in that regard it doesn't make much sense to judge how good the progress really was, if it was fast enough or too slow. And it's been communicated pretty often that other stuff like the rewrite of the graphics engine, the codebase itself, the Grand Tour game, the big Le mans cooperation and the rest of development that affects all areas of the game and not just the UI, led to interruptions in developing the UI.

I mean, we can interprete and judge as much as we would like to as arm chair analysts, but the truth is that most of us don't know what's going on and where the issues really are. I am pretty sure Marcel could write a UI in 4 weeks aswell if he didn't have to worry about anything else. That's not me saying that they haven't made mistakes with the UI btw. Features like a dark mode and the wierd structure in some areas should have really been fixed by now, at latest when they released it as the default UI. There is no excuse for that.
 
hitm4k3r said:
Did most of the freelancers, that you know have to deal with rF2 codebase? [...] Features like a dark mode and the wierd structure in some areas should have really been fixed by now, at latest when they released it as the default UI. There is no excuse for that.
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Yes, extracting the old UI from the code would have been a bugger of a job but once done it was supposed to be much easier to edit the new UI and we've seen little sign of that. Suggests it's simply a low priority in S397's plans.
 
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